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Was Rick's action immoral ?

Discussion in 'Episode 612 - Not Tomorrow Yet' started by Shonen, Mar 10, 2016.

  1. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I agree about long-term. While I'm sure the show won't go in to it, I'm sure many people at Hilltop and even Alexandria will immediately be happy the current threat is gone, but long-term will begin wondering what kind of a leader they really have if he is willing to go in and kill and entire compound in their sleep.
     
  2. netr0pa

    netr0pa Member

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    It's gonna be sooooo AWKWARD if it turns out that among the survivor group will exist also CHILDREN, OLD people and pregnant women!

    I doubt that the director will include children because apperently, it i so taboo to kill children on TV-shows.

    So as soon as they show children, people will refuse to kill them and the viewers will feel guilt of cheering for those who kill children. But obviously, there should be some children among a GIANT big group as survivor group who has a rumour of consisting of 60 -100 people.

    My point of view is: In reality, there should be some children amoung the survivors but in reality, the directors will try to avoid to show them since it's either black or white in TWD. People are either on good side or on bad side. There is no grey zones or what so ever.

    I personally don't think everyone in the survivor group is bad but we all know that all of them will be killed anyways and I doubt that Rick's group will take in those people like they did with "Wood Berry".
     
  3. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. That was a military post and those were Negan's soldiers. They cleared the compound room by room, quietly dispatching those they found within, not even waking them at first. Had they opened a room with sleeping children or elderly people inside I'm confident they would have closed the door and moved on. After the alarm went off, it would have been natural for unarmed mothers to stay put and shield the children rather than run out to engage the intruders. They wouldn't have been involved in the fight and Rick would have had other decisions to make when the battle was over. If they were fighters they would have hidden the children and gone out to fight and get killed. Afterwards the children would have been taken along with any non combatants.

    How do you think wars are fought? If you're a soldier on a mission to remove hostiles, do you think you have time to decide who is "good" and who is "bad"? The fact they're fighting for someone like Negan, for whatever reasons, unfortunately makes them a target. No one that I saw, after the alarm went off, threw down their weapons and tried to surrender which would have triggered another scenario.

    Just how war goes. Take any war you can think of. Don't you think there were family men, men who weren't professional soldiers fighting? Ever hear of the draft? In the Second World War there were many "good" German men who ended up fighting for Hitler but the Allied soldiers had to kill them just the same. Make no mistake. Our survivors are engaged in a war they're fighting on two fronts.
     
  4. netr0pa

    netr0pa Member

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    What you are saying is that "shit happens" if the children would be among the next survivor camp Rick's group is raiding.

    Well, that's not as easy as you think. The moral is to not kill children but Rick's group will probaly kill of everyone the way they raid like this.

    Some of the survivor fighters will defend their camp (obviously, they have to defend cause now they are the ones being attacked) and children among those will also be deleted during the fight.

    Morally, what Rick's group is doing is a big risk for both sides. Maybe it must be done but still not quite immoral. That's my point.
     
  5. Chassit

    Chassit Member

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    His was a choice in order to continue the survival of those he loves. Nothing immoral about that even at the cost of the lives of others. Whether they deserve that death is irrelevant. To quote William Munny "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it".
     
  6. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Wherever did you get "shit happens" from my post? Although it does or Carol and Maggie wouldn't be hostages right now. But you keep saying IF. Based on the information from his own people, and the Hilltop people, there was no reason to expect that there would be families with children involved. I'm not even sure that the groups Negan deals with have any actual knowledge of his main compound. They've probably only dealt with the soldiers in the outposts or in groups when they make their periodic terror runs. Rick acted correctly based on the information he had, and I think our group would have made the right decisions on the spot if they had been faced with something different than they expected. Haven't you been watching since season one? Rick is one of the most moral characters they have on this show but he has to make decisions that will keep his group alive and safe.
     
  7. Zalanii

    Zalanii Member

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    There's no room for season 1 nice guy Rick anymore.

    Nice Guy Rick gets people killed.
     
  8. br0k3n

    br0k3n Member

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    Myth Busters

    "There IS NO morality in a zombie apocalypse. Morality is a fantasy/illusion/hobby for intellectuals and civilized cultures."

    WRONG. Morality has been a centerpiece of human thought from the dawn of recorded history. Our Marines in combat WILL NOT engage Taliban when kids are in crossfire. Taliban will intentionally shoot children trying to draw out Marines, but US Marines will not blithely take innocent life just because it's complicating the mission.

    Now to the point that conflict with The Saviors is an inevitability. Ok yes, I could see that. Better long term plan to unite with Hilltop and other encampments to form a military coalition that could crush The Saviors. More fighters, more resources, more possibilities for coordinated assault.

    WHAT THEY DID was sell themselves outright as mercenaries. They abdicated a moral path on this for what was expedient. And now they are about to pay the price.
     
  9. Lori Grimes

    Lori Grimes Active Member

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    Gotta do what you gotta do.
     
  10. Chassit

    Chassit Member

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    Please show me one example of an apocalypse in history to back up your claim, otherwise it is entirely speculation.
     
  11. netr0pa

    netr0pa Member

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    Their action will cost them lives, that's for sure: maybe not even one but 2 main characters (and a dozen of ASZ side-characters) will be gone by this decision. I think this will be the biggest casuality Rick's group will ever face.

    It surely was not an easy decision to take but Rick seem too underestimate the survivors to the max. I'm pretty sure the directors will try to not put any children among the survivors - just so we viewers will not get any guilt feeling of Rick's ASZ slaughtering the group.
     
    #31 netr0pa, Mar 13, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2016
  12. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    It's a dog eat dog world out there. Survival trumps morals in these extreme situations. I've never tasted dog meat though, so maybe I should keep my opinions to myself. Sorry.
     
  13. Lilliam

    Lilliam Active Member

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    Then every colonising power in the history of the world is immoral.
     
  14. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    What "other encampments?" Hilltop is the only group of non-evil people they've found so far other than themselves, and they didn't even find THAT, Hilltop found *them* -- come to think of it, so did Alexandria.

    And they aren't *just* being mercenaries. If they were passing by and never intended to come back and decided to fight for pay, that would be being a mercenary. In this case though, given that Daryl's group was attacked, Rick most likely correctly assumes that at some point Negan's people are going to come after Alexandria as well, so he should strike first rather than be victimised. (Gary Coleman said the same thing)

    Should Rick be arming and training the Hilltop people? I'd say "yes", but at the same time I can see Alexandria not wanting to have to ration bullets and guns either.
     
  15. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty much the opinion of everyone who's had their country colonized by someone else.
     
  16. Lilliam

    Lilliam Active Member

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    Yup. Along with one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist.

    Which is what makes the premise that Rick was immoral for attacking the Saviours as a preemptive strike a difficult one.
     
  17. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    If Rick's group had no prior interaction with Negan's men, IOW, if they just found another settlement and did a Governor on it, I'd call his actions immoral. In this case though, Sasha, Daryl, and Abraham could personally testify to the character of Negan's organization. Maybe it wasn't a great thing to do, but leaders have to do tough things when the lives of their people are on the line.
     
  18. Lilliam

    Lilliam Active Member

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    Agreed. Which is why I say that it's not a black and white answer. It depends on your point of view, literally. For those inside the Saviour stronghold he's a ruthless aggressor. To Alexandrians and the Hilltop, he's a saviour and a liberator.
     
  19. Bettie

    Bettie Active Member

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    As someone else said, immoral in a world like ours? Yes.

    In the world as they are living? No.

    Between the interaction on the highway and what they heard at Hillside, it was pretty clear that there was not going to be any negotiating with Negan's group.

    You don't let a pack of rabid dogs roam the neighborhood on the off chance that they won't bite. Given what we've seen of this group, they are the rabid dogs of the story.

    Had there not been the scene on the highway, I'd have expected there to be an attempt at negotiation, but given that, there was no other choice.
     
  20. Bettie

    Bettie Active Member

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    I disagree.

    Rick knew that his people would have to take out N's group. Given what they discovered, that is how it would end.

    Why not use that as leverage to get some food for his people?

    As to rules for warfare, how do they square with beating a kid to death in front of his community to gain compliance and engender fear?

    Hilltop was already being squeezed by the other group who, from the conversations we heard, were demanding more and more every time. An alliance is for after the immediate threat has been dealt with.

    Rick and his group have learned from bitter experience that you deal with the immediate threat before you lose a lot of people. The Governor, Terminus, the Wolves, it all leaves a mark.
     

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