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What do you rate this episode?

Discussion in 'Episode 501 - No Sanctuary' started by Carl Grimes, Sep 20, 2014.

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Episode Rating?

  1. 10

    109 vote(s)
    60.2%
  2. 9

    47 vote(s)
    26.0%
  3. 8

    17 vote(s)
    9.4%
  4. 7

    4 vote(s)
    2.2%
  5. 6

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
  6. 5

    3 vote(s)
    1.7%
  7. 4

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. 3

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 1

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. CheesyBirdMess

    CheesyBirdMess Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I agree. To me, especially in re-watching it now and knowing how the rest of the first half turns out - I feel like it was a massive wasted potential.
     
  2. TGO

    TGO Well-Known Member

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    One Showrunner who took things slowly, another who dragged out everything but had ore action and another who spends half a season building up to something to get rid of it in a second. Gimple is no Darabont but he's no Mazzara either.

    A lot of episodes these days are just so contrived and wasted. The only episode this season i truly enjoyed was 5x03 "Four Walls and a Roof" and yet i was still mildly disappointed. Not because of the execution but because of the fact that it just didn't have the effect it would have had with different characters or actors. Before anyone says anything i am not mainly referring to Dale and Andrea and how they were killed off unfairly. My point was instead that we should have had that storyline be taken by characters we know more and could really fel for because Sasha and Bob were honestly one of the most rushed relationships in TV i've seen. One episode hinting towards Sasha being thirsty for him in one scene, half an episode later in the season about them being together and then the odd moment or two of them looking all happy and sweet in a 2 second camera shot then Bob gets bit.. seriously?! I'd rather have had Beth not get seperated and take that even though Kinney would trash that material because atleast it wouldn't be the writers fault but the actor's.
     
    #122 TGO, Feb 3, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2015
  3. CheesyBirdMess

    CheesyBirdMess Well-Known Member

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    Yeah exactly right. I hate the build up and then blammo fast and poor execution and payoff... It's starting to be like a horror film, where you know the frights coming and you feel and see the buildup - but then the execution is just so fast and gives you nothing else - so it feels like cheap thrills.... Then afterwards you're like, "Wait, what?" and have to fill in the pieces yourself. Plot Holes.

    Yes, poor Bob and Sasha did not get fleshed out enough! Especially if this is supposed to be for Sasha to become a major badass... It actually might have been more fulfilling for Tyreese to be the 'Tainted Meat' and have Martin (whom he never killed) be the one that causes his death... There was no real payoff there for that whole Tyreese/Martin scenario, it was so weird.

    Plus, I also didn't understand Gareth deciding to take Bob back... Wait for them to leave, and then go in to get the remainder of the people, monologuing like a douche as if he had all the time in the world and as if Rick would be so dumb. It just all seemed so rushed and very very foolish of him, for someone that was supposedly so smart and calculated!

    I have also said all along, why waste the 'death' of Beth only to have her nowhere near her people? and to not explain The Hospital fully... They made it seem like all the cops were A-Holes and their whole system was suspect... Then all of a sudden 3 Random cops we've never seen are like, yah Dawn is the problem, we're totally cool now she's dead!! WTF?

    Wouldn't it have been far more disturbing for Beth to be one of Mary's recruits? Perhaps treated like a slave? Or even just eaten up. I've honestly read better fake spoilers and fanfiction relating to Terminus, The Hospital and Beths death - which makes it all the more disappointing.
     
  4. TGO

    TGO Well-Known Member

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    Don't even get me started on the hopsital arc, the only good part of that was Christine Wood's acting and even that didn't keep me entertained completely. Gimple might be better for restoring the show to it's proper storyline after the mess Mazzara made but it still makes me question why the f*ck they fired Darabont. All we get is a show that repeats itselfcontinuously and the show is digging itself into a deep hole. I still watch to be entertained as do we all but i find myself looking forward more to Better Call Saul and Game of thrones these days than TWD.

    Beth's actions in the MSF made no sense whatsoever and Daryl's actions were in no way Justified. Dawn may have allowed a lot of shit to happen in that Hospital but at the same time she was the leader and was in no way whatsoever than anyone in the group. When somebody stabs you ofcourse you're gonna shoot them in the damn face on reflex alone. Dawn immediately said after "I didn't mean to" and yet Daryl shot her anyway. Were we supposed to be pleased by this? I for one wasn't because he was in no way better than she was in that moment, atleast her actions were in self-defence.

    If the show wanted Beth gone so much they should've just had her take the Terminus death like everyone wanted her to. Kinney improved a lot in S5 (still doesn't hold a candle to half the other actors on the show) and for that i'm grateful because she wasn't irritating to see onscreen for once. A better idea in my opinion would have been for Beth to stay at the hospital with Dawn on her own terms and let Noah go free. It would make more sense and fit her character more, plus if the show 2 seasons down the track ran out of ideas she could return.
     
  5. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I've been very critical of this season, but on initial viewing I did like No Sanctuary. But unfortunately it doesn't hold up as much on second viewing. I watched it too recently along with the midseason finale as a sort of "refresher" for the second half.

    In comparison over the holidays I watched some of the first 3 seasons of the show and those episodes were still enjoyable overall.

    I'm just going to approach 5B though as a clean slate and hope they correct at least some of the problems many of us have noticed recently. I'll just be grateful if we don't have bottle episodes over the final 8. I think that alone will help to bring a bit more cohesiveness to the narrative.
     
  6. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I'm in the opposite camp on this one. I really didn't like the Dawn character. I'm not sure if it was the writing, Christine Wood's acting or a combination of both, but it seemed like a slightly better version of a soap opera type performance. Unfortunately most of the cops came across in a similar vein to me.
     
  7. TGO

    TGO Well-Known Member

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    The whole tone of that arc was soap opera'y. Christine woods was actually one of the highlights.
     
  8. Rapscallion

    Rapscallion Well-Known Member

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    Beth's attempt at killilng Dawn was stupid, but Daryl was justified in avenging Beth's death. Dawn had just killed someone he cared about, and someone whose kidnapping he felt responsible for. There's also the possibility that Dawn would've followed the group and killed them all. Rick had captured three of her cops, one of which was killed attempting to escape; Rick also had rescued two of his people, and accepted Noah into his group. To Dawn, Rick did not respect her authoritah.
     
  9. ltomlinson31

    ltomlinson31 Well-Known Member

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    I liked Percy. And Shepherd.
     
  10. TGO

    TGO Well-Known Member

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    Killing Dawn was not justified. What Dawn did was in self-defense and Beth was a moron in that moment. If Someone stabbed you for absolutely no goddamn reason your immediate reaction would be to retaliate. Daryl shooting Dawn was another unnecessary assault. The woman herself was very flawed as is every living human being but she didn't mean to shoot Beth it was a simple reflex hence the "I didn't mean to" and why she looked so shocked by her actions. It was an accident and a justified one at that.

    If this were the other way around and Dawn had stabbed Beth to have her shoot her in the face opinions would be completely different and there would be cheering for what Beth did. Rick killed one of Dawn's men instead of taking him captive again which was very possible in that moment and he isn't criticized for that either. Put yourself in every characters role and follow their actions and if anything Rick's group was the one in the wrong here. Now on that note the Hospital community was in no way innocent. They used unfair and violent methods for good intentions (Save that one piece of shit rapist cop).

    It was understandable to capture the officers to trade them for Beth but at the same time you really don't seem to be understanding the situation. Rick's group while full of characters we all know and love in some way, planned to break in and murder half of that group for selfish purposes. Before i get the whole 'the rules are different now' that is complete bullshit. People use that reply all the time tto prove their point but then act like it doesn't apply towards other aspects of the show and universe it's set in. "The Walking Dead is a morality tale of the human condition", that was a quote from Laurie Holden about the show at a convention last year and it still applies.
     
  11. Rapscallion

    Rapscallion Well-Known Member

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    I agree that what Beth did was stupid, but police are supposed to restrain themselves in stressful situtations. Dawn wasn't injured by the scissors, there was no need for her to shoot Beth. It may have been a reflex, but for a cop to react so violently is a hint that the woman's sanity was fragile.

    Daryl blamed himself for Beth winding up in the hospital, and he was hopeful she would be rescued unharmed. I understand why he killed Dawn.

    I think Rick wanted to attack the hospital based on past experience: Bringing Randall back to the farm threatened the group. Not killing the Governor at the parley brought on the war between the prison and Woodbury. Rick was cautious entering Terminus, but his group was still captured and they barely escaped. I think Rick was done taking chances and depending on the good nature of his fellow man. It's a kill or be killed world, at least it is now.
     
  12. Walkers_TWD

    Walkers_TWD Well-Known Member

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    About the reflex thing, we have seen this before with Rick and Shane. But Ricks was far better executed he moved the gun down before he went in for the kill. The whole Dawn being a cop thing makes no sense,im sorry, reflexes are reflexes u get stabbed you are going to react:zombies_lol: As seen with Shane and Dawn.
     
  13. TGO

    TGO Well-Known Member

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    If that is the rule on police officers then based on the general news, half of the American police force have fragile sanity. As for Dawn 'not being hurt by the scissors' she very much was hence the sound effect and Dawn's expression / reflex. If it was a simple case of her not even being harmed by them i still would think Dawn was somewhat justified in doing what she did.

    I understand Daryl wanting to shoot her but if we're going to think that an action is made justified by a characters thought pattern than the Governor was clearly well within his rights to kill Martinez.

    I understand the group went through a lot but at the same time Rick and the entire group have vowed constantly to honor those who died for morality and to keep the group living as a human community with heart. Dale, Andrea and Herschel died for that. Rick may be heavily criticized for S4a but y'know what? He was a good and decent human being and i respected him for who he was in that period.

    The group have devolved from all of this and become ruthless killers. This is not a good thing and all of those people didn't die so they could lose their humanity. I hope there's consequences for the way the group has acted over the last season because it really isn't realistic to have every single one of them turn out like this. It is NOT a Kill or be killed situation 24/7 when it comes to people because people can be reasoned with regardless of who they are and what they've been through. To further prove this point the entire of season 4a was trying to constantly display that you can come back from what you've done and you can become a decent human being again.

    To also contribute on the subject of Randall, the group was in no way in the right there either. People act like Randall was a monster because of the group he had been living with when we never even found out if he'd taken part in half of what they'd done. Taking someone hostage, tying them up and putting them in chains then having them tortured and attempt to execute them on multiple occasion for a crime they may never have even attempted is just cruel. Now who's the monster? Regardless of whether Randall had the possibility of betraying them and going back to his group is irrelevant. Rick's group should have given him a chance or set him free when they had meant to.

    To quote Dale:
    "So the answer is to kill him to prevent a crime he may never even attempt? If we do this we're saying there's no hope, rule of law is dead, there is no civilization. This is a young man's life and it is worth more than a five minute conversation. Is this what it's come to? We kill someone because we can't decide what else to do with them? You saved him! Now look at us, he's been tortured, he's gonna be executed.. how are we any better than those people we're so afraid of? YOu once said we don't kill the living. Don't you see if we do this, the people we were, the world that we knew is dead and this new world is ugly, hard and it's survival of the fittest. that's a world that i don't wanna live in, that i don't believe that any of you do. I can't, so please let's just do what's right."

    People might criticise the character but that speech was very on-point. The world is harsher but that doesn't mean the people have to become harsher when it comes down to their humanity. A message that Darabont, Mazzara and even Gimple have displayed and yet this fanbase doesn't seem to grasp that.
     
    #133 TGO, Feb 3, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2015
  14. CoyoteTWD

    CoyoteTWD Well-Known Member

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    I tend to prefer the quieter episodes over the more action packed ones. However, I am very good at suspending belief for the sake of badassery but I do have my limits (I'm looking at you Carol v. Terminus). But usually in the action packed episodes, it's still usually the quieter moments that I most remember, like the Daryl/Carol and Rick/Carl/Judith reunions that CBM mentioned. And in "Too Far Gone" I most remember Rick's titular speech to the governor than all of the shooting.

    I agree with TGO that I believe that the Terminus and hospital arcs were rushed and were wrapped up too quickly in a half season. I would love to have learned more about both groups. Dawn could have been a great villain, I think, and I didn't get nearly enough of Gareth. I didn't hate S5A and there were more than enough moments that I enjoyed but it hasn't been my favorite so far. I'm hopeful that S5B will be better now that the group is back together. Their interactions and relationships are the best part of the show for me.
     
  15. TGO

    TGO Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion the quieter episodes have a lot more potential than the action ones. Action should be used to further the story not for 'cool' walker kills and so the showrunner can say he had a "big episode". Dawn was a more realistic character than a lot of the people we've seen so far and I was disappointed in the fact that her and Beth were killed off just for shock. I'm hopeful about S5B but with the rate the show is going this season i doubt it's going to change a lot.
     
    #135 TGO, Feb 3, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
  16. CoyoteTWD

    CoyoteTWD Well-Known Member

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    I totally respect your opinion but for me, the writers put enough moments that I enjoy in with the "OMG Cool Kill" scenes to keep me happy. Would I prefer more of that rather than the action stuff? Hell yes! But I understand that pleasing the masses probably means more glitz and less substance.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Rapscallion

    Rapscallion Well-Known Member

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    But Dawn was wearing a vest. I think that's something Beth forgot about. Either way, Dawn wasn't injured. Cops have the right to defend themselves, but considering Dawn's state of mind (PTSD and her power tripping) I think she pulled the trigger when it wasn't necessary.
     
  18. Walkers_TWD

    Walkers_TWD Well-Known Member

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    Well considering Dawn did let out a huge gasp when she got stabbed,im pretty sure she felt the scissors in her skin. And not in the vest. And I think you meant Beth put the scissors into someone's shoulder when it wasn't necessary :zombies_lol:
     
  19. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I think the lowlight was the acting of "Elevator Shaft Cop." He was terrible before falling to his well deserved demise. The look on his face and the glares he shot Dawn and Beth....all really poor.

    And then it was funny how after he hit the bottom you could hear the walkers immediately descend upon him, yet when Beth and Noah went that way they were much more fortunate to have a big buffer (and of course the night vision goggles Beth used to shoot all of the walkers when they finally woke up).
     
  20. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    The shot was pretty instantaneous too. I believe her gun was holstered, so the timing was off particularly for a headshot at such close range. I could maybe buy it if she had shot Beth in the stomach.

    What really bothered me about the scene too is that she immediately told them she didn't mean to etc. It just added a level of confusion to very oddly filmed scene.
     

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