Rick's clan should not be judged by their jobs prior to the ZA. The "delivery boy" killed a walker while duct taped to a chair. The "gimp" has medical experience therefore benefits the entire group. The farmer's daughter has killed multiple walkers in hand to hand combat. Yes, he does have children in the group but what was he supposed to do? Kill them because they are weak? He has morals and ethics despite the cruel world in which they live. The group has put their lives on the line for each other many times. I think they would all take a bullet for each other, not just their leader. Shane took the life of Otis-who willingly put his life on the line for strangers. Although Daryl did initially plan to raid the group, he turned out to be a great asset. Shane cracked because he could not deal with his personal relationship with Lori and Rick. There is no way he could have dealt with current circumstances. He would have snapped and turned into a killing machine and gotten his entire group killed in the process.

What is the point of maintaining humanity if all humans turn into murderers. They might as well be walkers.

 

Are we talking about the same guy who killed two men inside a bar for threatening the group, killed his best friend, put a machete through tomas skull, locked andrew out to supposedly die, chopped off herschels foot to save him and went into woodburry guns blazing to save members of his group? That guys too soft?......

 

Snap

 

I was kinda wondering how she ended up sleeping in the bus, too. Last we saw, Rick had locked her in a cell and left her while he went to deal with everyone else. I guess someone else could have let her out, but still...

And am I the only person excited that they finally did something with the bus? I wondered if they were ever going to feature it, since Rick's standing on it in the poster for this season!

 

I have to say I seriously disagree. I really don't think I've missed much, I think we're simply seeing things different.

Michonne did not need them to face off against the Governor but she DID want them as help and a distraction when getting into the town. There is NO WAY you can convince me that she led them there out of the goodness of her heart, otherwise she would have helped actually rescue Glen and Maggie rather then wandering off for her own little vendetta.

And yes, she COULD have patched herself up, but would you not seek somewhere secure as well? Even she was having some trouble when the walkers had her backed up against the fence. Carl had to come in for the rescue. She delivered those supplies as a way to get somewhere safer and buy her way in, plain and simple. She's smart, she's not going to turn down potential allies especially when the Governor is sending out people to hunt her down.

I never said Rick was perfect either. He does make mistakes, but you're putting Rick down and placing Shane on a pedastal.

It wasn't Lori that 'poisoned' Shane, he needs to be held accountable for his own decisions. And he made plenty of bad ones. For christ sake, he was debating shooting his friend in the back because of a woman he was obsessed with, that is not the sign of a stable men. Shane was a loose cannon and as such, is not much good for leading anyone.

For the fish fry, they were ALL caught on unawares, it was not just Rick's fault. In fact, it was really more Shane's for not having people up and watching for walkers, they were caught with their pants down. How was it Rick "lead them there" anyways? The walkers got there BEFORE he did!

With Carl getting shot, Shane was there as well. He was just as responsible for Carl's safety. He stood right beside Rick, all smiles, as Carl got shot.

With Lori's death, it was only because Andrew led the walkers in, and yes, Rick should have killed him. But as we've seen, the walkers would have gotten in anyways.

And really? Sophia getting lost? You're REALLY going to blame that on Rick? When he was the ONLY FREAKING ONE that went after her? He did the best he could, he tried, which is a hell of a lot more then even her own mother did. Rick was in a tight situation there and did the best he could.

If Shane had been in charge, no one would have been comfortable and part of being a good leader isn't just telling people what to do, but knowing what to say to them. Shane did not have good people skills and that group would have fallen apart, hence why Shane was one of the constant outsiders.

Rick is a good leader, he does the best with what he has. He always thinks for the good of the group, he has evolved and changed for these people and keeping them safe is always in the forefront of his mind. Before, he never would have killed a living person, but he has now for the good of the group. You say he doesn't make good decisions, but when he thought they were a danger to the group he had no hesitation shooting those two men in the bar.

So you claim that Rick isn't a good leader because he happens to be having a mental breakdown, but Shane was when he was debating shooting group members in the back and attempting to rape a woman? Double standard, hey?

If the Governor is SUCH a great leader, why is it most of his people have no idea of the dangers that are even outside the gate? You think being a good leader is keeping them blind and ignorant to the threat? And yet this oooooh so great leader couldn't take the prison, something that Rick's group managed to do?

Rick has a group of people that are a family. The Governor has a small army and a group of townspeople who wouldn't know one end of a gun from the other. There is a huge difference, Rick's group has a real bond and they are willing to take some serious damage for one another. Daryl may have gotten stuck with the group by accident, but you cannot doubt who he is 100% loyal to now. Shane NEVER would have accomplished that. You're right, Rick's group is weak, but look at all that they have accomplished. And how did they do that? By having a good leader.

And you're telling me, after all that has happened with Tomas and his group, you would just readily take in new people because they say they will help you? Really now? People's word just ain't worth crud now, I don't blame him for being untrustworthy. Why worry about the Governor when you have people who could slit your throat right under your nose. Like I said before, Michonne has done very little in the past to earn trust (Although now that she saved Hershel and is contributing, that may just change, you never know) and Rick was going to let Tyrese in till his mental breakdown, which served as a reminder as to WHY he can't trust new people. He needs to look after the ones he has.

Excellent posts from IQDeficit and GhostDawg as well.

 

that's a fascinating reading. the only thing i'd tweak is i don't think shane was obsessed with lori and carl. he was obsessed with the idea of having a wife and child.

 

I kept wanting to jump in, but Emdier has said everything I would (and better than I could), so I'll just go with a - seconded!

 

I have no problem with Rick or Michonne at this point in the show although Rick is way more hostile toward Michonne than necessary. But I understand, he's doing what he thinks needs to be done to establish dominance. Could she communicate more? Sure. So I can understand why people are frustrated with her. But really, she doesn't owe Rick or his group a thing.

Rick has lead and kept his crew alive for eight months after that zombie infestation at Hershel's. They cleared the prison, a feat the Governor couldn't accomplish, so his recent breakdown aside, he's doing as well as to be expected. And Michonne was basically on her own before she met up with Andrea. She had two walkers on a chain for camouflage, if that's not cleaver I don't know what is. Let's not forget how well they handle themselves in the face of several walkers swarming them at a time. To discredit either one of these characters to prove a point is kind of silly.

 

I hate Merle, I don't worship Rick, but I dislike Shane primarily for two things. One, he sexually assaulted Lori in the CDC when he was drunk. Two, he MURDERED Otis so he could get back to Lori on the farm. Otis did not deserve it. It was cold blooded murder. But I can't speak for everyone else.

That goes a tad beyond being hot headed.

 

I think Michonne was sleeping in the bus. Im guessing they let her out of the cell after Rick initially started freaking out.

As for the Rick vs Shane debate. I think there is no way the group makes it together for 8 months if Shane is the leader. I think he is too hot headed and did not care enough about the group. People blame Shane for what happened at the camp when they were attacked but it wasnt his fault nobody was keeping watch. TO me that is on Shane and maybe Dale as well. The group would have never made it out of the CDC if it wasnt for Rick. Shane was panicking and would have gotten them all killed. When something really tough (psychologically) needed to be done like shooting walker Sophia it was Rick that stepped up and pulled the trigger. If Shane made it off the farm he may still be alive ( he is a badass) but the group would be dismantled.

As for comparing Rick to the governor, I think the fact Rick doesnt have an army make his accomplishments more impressive. Look what he has done with his group. He staged 2 successful raids at Woodbury against people better armed than his team. THis was not even a week after his wife died and T Dogg died. He is having a breakdown now, that is what makes his character interesting. But when shit goes down he still gets it done.

 

For the first point I agree with, there was no excuse.

The second point though, if he didnt do what he did He, Carl AND Otis would all be dead, no way I can blame him for doing what he did.

 

I sort of agree with everything you have been saying. Michonne does look out for people. But at the same time watching the show from the others point of view you could see why she is a hard person to trust. I think shes slowly talking more and eventually will open up litttle by little.

 

Michonne could have gone through a lot and have visions like Rick does.

 

He's not having nervous breakdowns because of what he has done. He's having nervous breakdowns because of things that were outside of his control and he's losing his faith in everything.

Losing Lori and T-Dog were outside of his control. It was miraculous that he has managed to keep so many people alive (Look at all the people they have nearly lost recently, it's amazing there are still so many of them alive!) and I cannot imagine the way that must wear you down, always being responsible for protecting these people and then to lose two (Almost three!) of them in a single day? Man, that would effect anyone!

It's that he feels like he's failing as a leader, that's what's getting to him. Not killing the living, he did what was necessary there. He knows that and did what was best for the group.

When Shane beat up Ed, that was our real first look into Shane starting to lose it. Sure, he would have stopped the fight before but you cannot honestly believe it was because he hit Carol that Shane went as far as he did. It was because the talk between him and Lori just moments before pissed him off, so he took it out on the best target. Ed just happened to be right there, prepped and ready for a beating... Although even I admit, that scene was awesome.

He did not want to put a bullet in Rick because of his weakness, it was because he was taking Lori and Carl away. Lori handled the situation very poorly and tried to take herself and Carl away cold turkey and in a very rude, mean-spirited way. Rick was ruining his life.

He did kill Randal because of the threat, but he also used it as an oppurtunity to draw Rick out away from the others so he could kill him. His intentions weren't wholly for survival.

If you do the things Rick has done because you want to and not because you need to, there's something SERIOUSLY wrong with you. Rick is a good man, it makes sense that this is tough.

Lori is partly to blame, but Shane HAS to be held accountable for his actions, namely attempting to rape Lori at the CDC and attempting to slaughter his "best friend". Lori never told him to do that, he did that allllll on his own. It can't all be blamed on Lori.

But see, that is the beauty of The Walking Dead as a whole. Because the characters don't want it to be kill or be killed! They want to hold on to their humanity and that is what makes them so likeable! People like Shane, who kill without hesitation for self preservation, has NO place as a leader of a group. Being a leader sometimes means sacrificing yourself for the greater good, something Rick demonstrates time and time again.

You say Shane was ALWAYS ready to do what needed to be done, but did you see him stepping forward to put down Sophia? Don't think so. When things got tough psychologically, when it came to putting a bullet in that little girls skull to end her suffering, it was RICK who stepped up.

Rick is NOT trying to be Shane. Rick always has been, and always will be, Rick. A man attempting to protect his family and hold on to his humanity while doing what he has to.

If they are soooo weak, how have they managed to survive this long? Do you forget how awesome they were in that first season 3 episode, holding tight formation and taking down walkers like a well oiled machine? Now THAT is a team!

Maggie is acting the way she is not because of the group, but because she was forced to remove her shirt and was further humiliated by a psychopath who was ordering the torture of her boyfriend right in the next room where she could hear. That would screw anyone up for a bit.

Beth isn't withdrawn in the least, she's actually probably the happiest and most outgoing right now in the group. She seems content to care for Lil' Asskicker.

Carl may be depressed because.... Oh, I dunno... He shot his mother in the skull a week ago? Perhaps?

How does Hershel seem "out of place"? Quite the contrary, he's the one gradually healing quite a few members of their family.

Glen has always been fine on his own, I don't think he's insecure. He's just furious because of what happened in Woodbury and craving revenge he cannot have at this time. I think that can be easily related to. He'll pull himself together.

Carol has improved because of EVERYONE treating her like a real person, not just Daryl. In case you didn't notice, she did accept Rick's shoulder to cry on when she heard that Daryl was gone. Like I said before, they are a family now. They are all close. It's not just one person effecting another now, they are a unit.

No, the Gov. does not have a real army right now. He has a town full of scared, panicky people and a small number of elite men and women who... Really aren't even that great. Do we not remember Haley, one of their "best", not even able to hit a walker at a fairly close distance with her weapon of choice? Wasting arrows and getting flustered even when not in real danger?

And the Governor's men aren't even all that loyal to him. Most, almost all, of them tried to leave him in Suicide King. They have no idea what the hell their doing.

Yes, Daryl left a big missing piece in their group. He was family, not to mention they lost Oscar too. Anyone would be upset, but they still carried on and tried to work things out. Anyone would be down if their brother up and left for what you consider a traitor.

No, they may not be soldiers, but they are fighters. Fighting to survive and protect their family, and that can be more dangerous.

 

That's true all we can do is speculate because she does not speak really at all. I think season 4 will be when we really get to know michonne

 

I think sooner than season 4 last couple of episodes of this season I reckon

 

I sure hope so!