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A Thread About Carol Killing Lizzie

Discussion in 'Episode 414 - The Grove' started by highway234, Mar 22, 2014.

  1. highway234

    highway234 Member

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    because I noticed this board doesn't have enough.

    You win.

    Brooding on it over the night I've figured out why I feel so driven to keep making the case that Carol didn't need to shoot Lizzie, and why I wanted to so energetically find ways to salvage Lizzie even after the awful thing she did.

    I'm not a big censorship guy and there are plenty of stories out there I think are brilliant even though they have protagonists who do terrible things. Lolita, A Clockwork Orange, Natural Born Killers, hell, even something like Caligula, Cannibal Holocaust, Last House on the Left, American Psycho.

    But there are certain places a writer, as a presumably socially conscious citizen, just shouldn't go. you shouldn't show someone being the victim of rape who ends up enjoying the rape. that used to be something you saw all the time in movies and TV (remember luke and laura?) but we evolved as a society and you hardly ever see that anymore, not least because it flagrantly encourages real-life rape.

    i don't think you should make a movie or TV show where a committed nazi is the good guy. if it's done tongue in cheek, as in Hogan's Heroes, it's fine, but a committed Nazi who participates in genocide and supports adolf hitler should not be your good guy. someone should never come away from your movie, TV show or your book with the message, "well, of course it's bad to exterminate jews, gays, and union organizers but in so-and-so's situation he really doesn't have any choice."

    I don't think you should make a movie or TV show that justifies soldiers deliberately massacring civilians. there's a movie called "Rules of Engagement" from 2000 that does exactly that, it shows soldiers mass-murdering unarmed civilians and then the rest of the movie tries to justify what they did. I thought it was a despicable film, said so in a published article at the time and caught a bit of heat for it. and remember, i liked "cannibal holocaust." it's not like I'm uptight.

    IMO, shooting a kid in the back of the head is exactly like that. Wanna make a TV show where a protagonist commits such an act and we're left to wonder about the morality of it, or you wanna use it as a springboard to ask questions about mental illness, what it means to be human, whether there are things people shouldn't be willing to do even if they have to to survive? fine. I think that can actually be very interesting. If your TV show's message is just, "well, she shot a child and she really didn't have any choice," then it would be better if your TV show didn't exist and you should think long and hard about what you think you're contributing to society by making it.

    i've loved the walking dead since the beginning so i really do not want to believe it might be such a show. That's what's underlying the tack i'm taking. either last week's episode was a fascinating and ambiguous study of what it might mean to be mentally ill in a post-civilized environment and whether there ought to be limits even to what one might do to survive, OR, it's a borderline reprehensible apologia for child murder. Sadly, after the long discussion on this board, i'm starting to come around to the perspective that it's the latter.
     
    #1 highway234, Mar 22, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
  2. bassetluv

    bassetluv Active Member

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    The way I look at it, "The Grove" was not created simply to justify a child's murder, as many have seen it. It was about the same thing the entire series reflects...that in a post-apocalyptic world overrun by zombies, choices are extremely limited, and often gut wrenchingly difficult. Again, many people are not looking at TWD in this venue; they are comparing it to a civilized society where rules abound, certain lines cannot be crossed, and death and murder are unconscionable when they do take place. You cannot compare the way we live now to the way a group of survivors live in such a setting. You simply can't.

    And for those who watched the episode and really felt Carol's character, they saw the pain that she was wrestling with over having to stop Lizzie before she harmed anyone else. They saw the pain in Tyreese's eyes when he agreed with what had to be done. They also understood that there simply were no viable options; not for them, not for Lizzie.
     
  3. rabscuttle1

    rabscuttle1 Well-Known Member

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    Pretentious. That's all I have to say about this thread.
     
  4. shakey

    shakey Member

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    ,
    Hyperbole much?
     
  5. Alina

    Alina Well-Known Member

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    That's funny. When I was a kid my mother wouldn't let us watch Hogan's Heroes because she had a relative who had died in a concentration camp and she thought that Hogan's Heroes mocked the reality of WWII.

    Presumably you don't think that the depiction of Lizzie's death on TWD will lead to a spate of middle-aged women assassinating pre-pubescent girls.

    Do you think that the depiction of Lizzie's death may contribute to a climate in which there are more Sandy Hook massacres? Or more children being tried as adults in the U.S.? Or more juveniles being given the death penalty in the U.S.?
     
  6. Komodia

    Komodia Member

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    Death to Lizzie!
     
  7. tink

    tink Well-Known Member

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    The whole point of this thread is for the OP to continue trolling after the other thread stopped reading him.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Kagerous

    Kagerous Member

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    Exactly
     
  9. offrope

    offrope Active Member

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    Is it true that if you kick a dead horse long enough, it will come back to life?
     
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  10. bassetluv

    bassetluv Active Member

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    Ah, got it. Someday I'll catch on faster. ;)
     
  11. Komodia

    Komodia Member

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    Is it a zombie horse?
     
  12. MustardMan

    MustardMan Member

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    Kids are killed like that every day, unfortunately. In our world, real world where there's no zombies. Just us. But when it's shown on TV then it's immoral/disgusting etc. Isn't that hypocritical? This show didn't do anything to promote or even justify this specific act. TWD is a different world, the one where you have to change your views and principles to survive and you're faced with tough decisions every day. You need to get over it.
     
  13. HeadlessHershel

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    Lizzie rules man btw she's not really dead as long as y'all keep talking about her.
     
  14. rabscuttle1

    rabscuttle1 Well-Known Member

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    Every time I see this thread I'm going to type nonsense. Is that trollish? Yes. Do I care? No.


    Lizzie was a psycho

    She stabbed her little sis

    Carol shot her in the head

    And sensitive fans got pissed

    They say it wasn't moral

    They say Carol was all wrong

    For protecting baby Judith

    From a child too far gone

    This crappy poems over

    There's only one thing left to say

    Lizzie's rotting in the ground

    And Judith's safe today
     
  15. Caryl

    Caryl Member

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    This needed a new thread??
     
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  16. HeadlessHershel

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    Lizzie saved countless lives by getting rid of all those rats, they carry Lyme-infested ticks and stuff a lot worse than that. She probably saved the prison now that I think about it not Hershel's magic tea.
     
  17. sonoftupac

    sonoftupac Member

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    Lizzie was nothing but an attention whore who killed her sister. A cowardly murderer.

    If she thought she was helping Mika, why didnt lizzie kill herself? Why does lizzie run away from zombies if she genuinely thinks they wont hurt her?

    Glad she's dead. Im happy shes dead. 1 less crappy actor in the series. 1 less annoying character to painfully watch.
     
  18. Darylette

    Darylette Member

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    I've made M&M cookies today.
     
  19. rabscuttle1

    rabscuttle1 Well-Known Member

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    Nice! I'm not big on sweets but M&M cookies are good.
     
  20. Benzel

    Benzel Member

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    Oh highway's two multis have shown up too. LOOK AT US YOOHOOOO.
     

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