Wow. For once I'm glad they didn't go any further. That scene was intense enough as it was. I couldn't even believe they went as far as they did. I figured they'd cross-out "rape" altogether and just try to beat the shit out of him or something.

But I can't wait to see where they're going in season 5. Since the "no more kid stuff" speech, carl has gone from one of my least favorite characters to my outright favorite. Changed more than any other character. Even carol. And it looks like in season 5, he'll be the best we've ever seen him: he's finally come to respect his dad and their relationship is about as good as its been since season 1... But at the same time, Carl will be getting darker and more badass than ever. The monster speech. His resounding "yes." The way he watched Rick gut Dan. This is going to be awesome. Can't wait to see the changing dynamic between Rick, Carl, Daryl, and Michonne. WHY CAN'T IT BE OCTOBER YET!?!?!?

 

I've really warmed to Carl in the last few seasons. I'm glad the scene wasn't more graphic too

 

Agreed. It was really awkward to watch for sure with the limited content they displayed.

 

Mehh I wouldn't have been bothered. Just a show to me. But I can definitely understand how some may not appreciate it.

Sounds like it may have got filmed... DVD's?

 

Couldn't agree more! And honestly, what I think Andy is referring to as "more graphic"; are the event that we can hear transpiring while Dan has Carl pinned down; right before Rick takes a bite out of crime. What we hear is clearly a belt being unbuckled and pants being unfastened, but all we see is Dan's perverted, snickering face. I think in the original filming of this scene, there was a wider shot of this moment; showing Carl's pants being pulled down to the knee, revealing his underwear and that's when Rick goes for the throat. Obviously this didn't make the cut; but I feel like this is the "more graphic" extent to which Lincoln is referring. The reason I believe the scene was originally this way(and also why it would've been no worse than this) is because of the perfect, carbon copy, panel by panel adaptation of the scene.

That being said; Carl has come so far. He's shaping up to be a potentially great man. It's seem a lot of the strengths and values Rick has tried to instill in him have taken root. Also, some of the more unspoken qualities are starting to show in Carl, the things that cannot be taught; but are passed from father to son. Carl is the first of a completely new breed. Rather than be consumed, demented, desensitized, and devoured by the horrors and adversities of this new world; he has been exponentially strengthened by them--while at the same time being refined by the compassionate qualities of the old world; bestowed upon him by his father. Carl will have a great deal of power and capability at his disposal when he reaches a point of complete physical and mental maturity. He's becoming a great man who will have the opportunity to do great things, the sorts of things his father dreamed of and spoke about in his troop-rallying speeches.

 

I think the fans of TWD got the point with what was shown happening to Carl during that attempted rape scene, their was no need to go any further imo.
I started going from disliking Carl to liking Carl when he shot the kid in the woods during The Governor's first failed attempt at attacking the prison in season 3.
That's the episode when Hershel told Rick that Carl "gunned the kid down", that was about the only time I thought Hershel was wrong and Carl did the right thing in my eyes.

 

I really hope the aftermath of an almost rape is focused on Carl. Carl is the victim here not Rick and the show needs to treat it that way. I don't want to see almost child rape be used as a vehicle for Rick's man pain. More time should be spent on how this affects Carl rather than what it does to Rick. Due to the history of the show I'm skeptical but am giving them the benefit of the doubt until next season.

 

haven't read the actual thing yet, but i have exactly no self control, so i know what he says. lol. yeah. in another thread talking with you (i think it was the 124 discussion thread, but not sure and too lazy to look) i said Carl was bane. i lied. Carl is Jekyll and Hyde. more on this in my actual comment down below all these quotes. \/ \/ \/

you're damn right, he needed to do it. i've probably gotten in more arguments over that scene than any other two scenes combined. i've debated with people countless times (and there's still this girl at work who takes hershel's word as gospel so we still argue about it. lol) and argued every single little detail, so i know what i'm saying when i say that EVERY single sign jody gives us says he was going to make a move. firstly, he was told to DROP it. like hershel dropped his when the governor told him to. second, the governor told everybody to have a sidearm. so, jody likely had a second gun he failed to tell them about. he at LEAST had a knife. third, from the way jody was "tacticool"ing his way through the prison, the look on his face says he was there for blood. fourth, as jody approaches Carl, rather than pointing the gun straight up in the air like he should, he slowly swings the gun TOWARDS Carl, rather than away. but more telling than all of those: jody left his safety off and his finger was never more than an inch from the trigger. if you are going to hand a gun to somebody-- hell, even if it's two friends shooting bottles in the backwoods-- the FIRST thing you do is turn the safety on, and take your finger off the trigger. jody was up to no good. and if we want to know Carl's intent, we can determine that quite well, too. first off, if Carl is damn good with a gun. fast on the draw. watch the scene where he saves ty's group. there is no hesitation. he sees walkers, and they die. simple as that. if he just wanted to kill somebody, Hershel would never have had time to say, "drop the gun." it would have been Jody: "Hey, hey, he--" Carl: [BLAM!] and when we see Carl's reaction, he's not quite proud, but not ashamed either. he knows he "did what he had to do," but isn't happy it had to go down that way. he doesn't nod his head. he doesn't shout, "HELLS YEAH!!!" He doesn't even crack his trademarked "just saved Hershel" grin. he is shocked.
it's the way he carried himself afterwards that was cause for concern. he's better now, though. again, read down below for the full version \/ \/ \/

I agree and disagree at the same time. I said above Carl is like Jekyll and Hyde. on the one hand, he has definitely rounded a corner. his conscience and his humanity is stronger than it has been since the beginning, innocent times of S2. but that conscience is only there to provide contrast to the fact that he definitely has a dark side. he enjoyed watching his dad gut dan, and later confirmed, "Yes," he deserved it. In fact, one of the relevant "thoughts" that he fears his father will learn is: he wanted to HELP Rick gut Dan.

The somewhat strange but really awesome thing is, BOTH sides of him are going further and further in their own directions. usually, they say, "feed the good man, starve the monster. feed the monster, starve the good man." and despite the fact that Carl is pretty much starving all the time (1-10? 15.) he seems to be feeding both the monster and the good man. as i said, his humanity is stronger than it has been since Lori died. his conscience has fully come back. but at the same time, his dark side is darker than ever-- darker to the point where they could only HINT at it in the season finale. dark to the point where, to quote Gimple, he is "straight-up terrified" of it.

but that's ok. the fact that Carl is terrified of it tells us that he is still in control. in the comics, after Carl confesses to rick about a dark thing he has done, Rick talks about the differences between good people and bad people in this new world. they will both have to do bad things to survive. the difference is: bad people enjoy doing the bad things. they relish the evils they have done. it is easy for them, and they lose no sleep over it. Good people, however, fear their dark side. they hate the things they have to do, and while they don't necessarily regret them, they are definitely not happy with the fact that that's what it takes to survive.

Carl is a good man, because he fears the monster.

 

I think the whole reason why Rick has finally excepted his new darker way of thinking has everything to do with what happened to Carl, so you maybe right @Caryl Gimple may be using this as a vehicle just to bring out what you call "Rick's man pain" so we can see a more brutal and ruthless Rick Grimes.
TWD isn't exactly Game Of Thrones, GOT is very complex in comparison to TWD, I mean it's basically a show about what's left of the human race trying to survive an apocalyptic event in Georgia.

 

I hope they don't end up handling it this way. That would be a really irresponsible use of rape in a TV show. I agree it's not even close to the caliber of GoT but that doesn't excuse callous use of rape as a plot device.

 

This whole "rape storyline" thing is unfinished. In the finale, he has a conversation with Michonne, this is a very similar conversation he has with Abe and Rick in the comic... however, the most important part was left out. They're saving this for Rick. Not only does this conversation conclude the rape storyline but it's the major emotional beat in fully repairing Rick and Carl's relationship.

If quotes and interviews are anything to go by, it will go also go down like in the comic. Stuff being left out of the Michonne/Carl conversation was intentional.

 

That's good to know. I think I posted somewhere that I thought it odd there wasn't more interaction between Rick and Carl in the episode.


Regarding the graphic nature of the scene, I think they could have added a shot of the guy's unbuckled belt if they wanted to be more explicit. No way could they have shown any of Carl's clothing being removed. Ugh.

 

I really hope so. People who didn't read the comics were probably like, "Thoughts? What sort of thoughts, Carl? Is this about Beth? You're right, Carl. You are a monster." lol.

my personal hope is that they combine his talk by the El Camino the day after with his talk from issue 67. which actually makes sense. it sort of worked in the comics for the conversation to end with "sometimes i worry if you knew the thoughts i had, you wouldn't love me anymore. [tearful hug]" but this would have been a bit of a wtf moment on the show. if they combine carl's confessions about his dark side with Rick's good people vs. bad people talk, it will make a lot more sense. the two conversations are linked, in my opinion, even though they were separated by almost 10 issues. in his conversation the morning after the rape attempt, Carl admits he's got a dark side, and he's worried about what his dad thinks. in the good people vs. bad people conversation, they come to terms with how to live with the dark side without letting it control you.

WHEN they do it, there will be so much feels.

 

I agree. Carl's at a great precipice. He's learning a level of self-control unlike any other. As you say, Carl's a great man, because he fears the monster. This is true, but while he fears it I also think he respects it, reveres it, understands it's power and it's uses. Most of all he understands the mostners new-found necessity in this new world. This brings be to what you said about both sides of Carl growing equally. I think he does this on purpose. You said; feed the man, starve the monster; feed the monster, starve the man. Well, things are different now and Carl realized in order to survive, and even thrive now, the monster and man must be able to share one body. He's seen that it's been the monster in his father that has kept them all alive this long. So while I agree that Carl has a strong and compassionate humanity, and that he fears the monster, and sometimes suffers guilt, and other things of that sort(thereby feeding the man)--I think he recognizes the absolute necessity of a ferocious, ruthless and unforgiving dark-side in the new world. In order to maintain that power it must be nourished and cared for in very much the same way he has to fight for his humanity. There's a certain bloodlust, or thirst that must be regularly quenched in order for him to keep his keen edge and ferocity. That sort of vicious and relentless primal instinct. It's a difficult balance to maintain; and can become a slippery slope(as we've seen with Carl in the past.). But when maintained properly; it's a force to be reckoned with. I think Carl is finally beginning to learn how to keep the balance; how to quench the bloodlust, how to feed the monster and keep it strong but doing it in a justified and uncalloused way. A way which maintains his humanity and honor. Ironically; Carl is learning these ways and lessons at the very same time his father is--which is one of the biggest reasons I think he'll be exponentially greater than Rick when passed the torch. Rick is no doubt a great man and leader; but Carl is a son of the apocalypse.

 

Agreed, the kid was very slow to drop the gun, and his actions were ambiguous as to whether he was going to make a move or actually drop the thing. It's obvious they filmed it that way, to leave doubt.

 

I agree with most of what you said, but disagree on a few things.

Firstly, it's not really a bloodlust. Bloodlust means you enjoy the killing-- you WANT to kill. Aside from watching Dan, this doesn't really apply to Carl. Even after he killed jody. Wasn't really proud. Just confident that he did what needed to be done. Did he enjoy watching Rick gut Dan? Sure. But the punishment fit the crime. IMO, even in the civilized world, child rape should carry a mandatory sentence of "being gutted alive by Andrew Lincoln." Lol. Back to Carl, I do think he enjoys killing walkers, but really, who wouldn't? And I think that's plenty of action and violence to sharpen his skills and keep his brutal side at the ready.

I'm not sure about whether he's deliberately growing the monster. He seems to be afraid of the monster... Or is he really just afraid of what his dad would think of the monster? I do agree that he understands its power and necessity. He understands-- and has for longer than Rick has-- that you NEED to be capable of brutality sometimes. "It can't always be like this," he said. But he is terrified of that side of himself, and I think that will be the perfect defense mechanism to prevent it from controlling him. In actuality, he and Rick are learning the opposite lessons. Carl is learning how to keep his humanity. Rick is learning the necessity of brutality.

All I know is, I can't ****ing wait for he and Rick to have that talk. It will be awesome. It really brings them closer and helps them both to come to terms with the duality of life in this new world.