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Did you change your mind about Morgan?

Discussion in 'Episode 604 - Here's Not Here' started by and138, Nov 1, 2015.

  1. WhatThe...

    WhatThe... Member

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    I think its clever what they're doing with Morgan. There's been a lot of hype about alot of different characters. I remember when they teased Michonne's character at the end of one of the episodes and everyone was like 'OOoooohh, its Michonne, that badass with the katana!' I was disappointed with Morgan's character when they reintroduced him to the ASZ. They introduced him to the audience as a ninja type badass who can handle himself without killing anyone. He was still a badass, but I think this episode gave us the real story, that he's just as messed up as everyone else is. He's got issues and he's probably still just as clinging onto sanity as anyone else could be.
     
  2. Bettie

    Bettie Active Member

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    I understand where he is.

    He's the opposite of Rick right now.

    Eventually, they both need to come back a bit from the extremes they are living in.

    Morgan needs to figure out that killing is sometimes a necessary evil and Rick needs to figure out that sometimes you can resolve things without killing.
     
  3. Berry

    Berry Member

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    Thought it was funny that at the same time as he discovered Eastman, Morgan was looking at the flowers.

    Morgan said to Rick back in CLEAR, " Those that are too good are dead, and those that are too evil are dead, but those that are weak have inherited the earth" or something to that effect. Morgan knows he's weak. He lost his own mind, so borrowed that of Eastman's. The irony was that Eastman was too good, and he's dead, and Morgan took that persona.

    Morgan was a scared wild animal, just trying to survive. Eastman gave him something worth dying for (as per Rosita), so helped him live. But because he is now living a life that is too good, he will die. Morgan knows being too good will kill him, but he would rather live and die that way than the alternative.

    I'm not sure if killing for Morgan was equivalent to an addiction to alcohol. Morgan killed out of fear, not enjoyment. I know alcoholics don't drink for pleasure, but the BRAIN gets "pleasure" from the alcohol. Did Morgan's brain get satisfaction or relief? Doubt it. However, Morgan was killing while in a state of terror, and would associate the act of killing with his own unhinged mental status. So, he wouldn't want to kill for fear of bringing that mental state back. Unlike the alcoholic, killing a bad guy would be therapeutic for Morgan.

    However, even if Dana doesn't prescribe killing for Morgan, he should at least turn the Wolf over to "authorities".
     
  4. Sachiko

    Sachiko Active Member

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    This is interesting.
     
  5. Watching Dead

    Watching Dead Member

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    Still not a fan, he is trying to oversimplify a complicated world with a philosophy that fits into a small 16 page book written by a grieving man. This is not going to end well and it already has not begun well. Morgan had a lot of potential but he lost his mind. He is of no use to anyone but himself and he should be alone and left alone. Until he wakes up he is a danger to everyone around him.

    The backstory helped understand the character more but even understanding it, still don't agree with it.
     
  6. Watching Dead

    Watching Dead Member

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    Its worse than that though because he tries to force his beliefs on everyone around him. Its more like a religious zealot than an addict.
     
  7. Berry

    Berry Member

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    To have a bit of cross-over action:

    Daniel Salazar (off Fear the Walking Dead) tells the story about his father, and that his father said "They do these things, not because they are evil, but out of fear." And Daniel says his father was wrong because there is no difference.

    Morgan did evil out of fear, but it was evil, none-the-less. Clearing innocents puts him right up there with the Governor and Wolves.

    I think Morgan is one of the most interesting characters because usually we get black and white scenarios. This person is good, this one, bad, and so we hope the good puts down the bad. Nice and tidy.

    Morgan makes us think. We KNOW him! He's our friend, but now our friend has done terrible things. We don't know if he can be rehabilitated.

    Rick never asked him the 3 questions. If Rick didn't know Morgan from before, would he have let him in the group?
     
  8. ΖΟΜΠΙ

    ΖΟΜΠΙ New Member

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    Morgan is either dumb or deranged at this point. And without any doubt, bad news. No time for new-age kinda shit in a post-apocalyptic world full of zombies. My life is more precious than the life of my attacker. Obviously.
     
    #108 ΖΟΜΠΙ, Nov 3, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  9. Damaniel

    Damaniel Member

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    It was mentioned earlier, but this episode really showed that Morgan's new persona is very fragile.

    I've seen many people say that Morgan is beyond "repair", that he is irredeemable, and he will never come to find a middle ground. This episode shows that this isn't true at all. Morgan's grasp on his zen philosophy is tenuous. I don't think it will take too much to push him to a more normal persona.

    Morgan is much more capable of change than people are thinking. His interactions with the Alpha Wolf will be the catalyst for change.
     
  10. BlackNoise

    BlackNoise Member

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    Hateable Like Eastman

    I hate him now. He's the exact type of person who could be a terrorist, serial killer, Hitler, or Jesus-like figure. NOTHING is more important than how he feels moment to moment. I wonder why Eastman couldn't see right through him, but I almost forgot Eastman watched a man starve for 47 days. And remember, Eastman was a guy who understood the differences between a true psychopath and a person who just had some issues.

    Over the course of 47 days, he didn't at least feel like it was a waste of time? It's like torturing a wild animal for doing wild animal shit. An unfix-able human should not garner that type of treatment, especially from a guy who was in Eastman's position. I know, his family. He's the type to put his family at risk because he's curious about terrible humans. Just selfish. The type who would be a vegetarian during the ZA. People starving all around him, and he's trying to make the perfect goat cheese.
     
  11. ΖΟΜΠΙ

    ΖΟΜΠΙ New Member

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    Preach brother! Preach!
     
  12. Brother AJ

    Brother AJ New Member

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    This episode made me like him even more actually since I now understand exactly where he's coming from. All the hatred towards Morgan is rather sad for me to see, and is probably rather indicative of our own "eye for an eye" society. I hoped that "Here's Not Here" would allow people to better sympathize with his character really, but no dice.

    I'm not saying the character is perfect, but very few even seem to WANT to understand him and how he NEEDS his newly acquired viewpoint on the sanctity of life. It's how he battles his severe PTSD for one, so I think it's rather ridiculous for some of you to say that he'll become more "normal" eventually and begin to kill when it is "necessary." Also, to him, killing the Wolves would basically mean that he was never deserving of the mercy or compassion given to him by Eastman, and was really just another dangerous "savage" that needed to be put down.
     
    #112 Brother AJ, Nov 3, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Dreet

    Dreet Well-Known Member

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    I liked this. Reputation point!:)
     
  14. tink

    tink Well-Known Member

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    I guess I was one of the few who never stopped liking him. Even if I don't necessarily agree with his philosophy, I agree even less with Rick's, which is I only save these few people I know and everyone else we kill. There's gotta be a happy middle somewhere!
     
  15. Benrai2k

    Benrai2k Active Member

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    No, if anything it made me dislike him more. I understand now he is a weak minded crazy killer who needs to be zen cause he has no bearing on how to be in the middle ground, unlike Carol or Rick.

    Morgan was a crazy killer. Killed people for the sheer sake. Carol, Rick and everyone else he preaches to never kill people for the sheer sake of wanting the area clear around them. Carol was killing savages breaking in a and hacking people up in their community. Sorry Morgan but just cause you are a 100% maniac killer and need to go zen to restrain yourself, don't paint everyone else as the same.

    No Carol doesn't like killing, but sometime it has to be done. A good example is, as before mentioned - a bunch of psychos wanting to hack you up and carve Ws in your head invade your land and even are killing little kids too.

    It also confirmed to me Morgan hasn't lived and experienced half of what our gang has. Messed up kids killing their own siblings? prison attacks Vs a tank and a nutter that hacks old men's heads off? Cannibals using people like cattle? Sex slave hospitals? He is naive,weak minded and dangerous.

    He just comes off to me as a guilty hypocrite.

    I liked Eastman - and in his circumstances and set up in a cabin, away from everyone his little philosophy was okay. But had he gone out in to the larger world we see...even his philosophy would fall flat. And would have got him or others killed.

    Morgan is the same weak man from episode 1 who could not kill his own walker wife.

    I don't dislike him cause he wont kill people. I dislike him cause he preaches so much and has lived a fragment of the life experience of team Rick. Also his preaching comes from a place of guilt, and weakness, because he can not handle the middle ground.
     
    #115 Benrai2k, Nov 4, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  16. Dreet

    Dreet Well-Known Member

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    Well put together argument but you got understand too that Morgan has essentially been alone and his only other real companion was his son before Eastman. After Rick parts ways with him in season 1, one could speculate that Morgan and Duane stayed together hunkering down and hiding from walkers and maybe even avoiding human interaction all together. Yes, he feels remorse for what he has done but that was his only way that he felt he needed to do to survive at the time, kinda like 'I'm going to get you before you can get to me' undead or still living. He basically went off the deep end after Duane and so by adopting and remembering Eastman's principals he wants to honor Eastman's legacy. I don't think he wants to automatically impose his philosophy to others eityer. He really doesn't need to divulge or even share his experiences alone out there with anyone. I think he needed to tell someone but he chose to share it with Alpha because he was once feral and went psychotic, to sorta just get it off his 'guilty' conscious maybe. If we never got the scene with him and Alpha we'll never get the story of how Morgan lost it and how he was brought back. Others still hate it, the episode or even still hate Morgan, but his character is flawed and damaged just like anyone else.
     
  17. Benrai2k

    Benrai2k Active Member

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    The good thing about Morgan's philosophy is we got to see more of Alpha Wolf. I love the way he is played. I kind of want him to "turn good" and I love how calm and even somewhat soft he comes across. Yet we know he is willing to kill everyone.
     
  18. FutureApocalyps

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    My sentiment too. Those he doesn't kill will likely kill other innocents.
     
  19. Dreet

    Dreet Well-Known Member

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    What a great twist it woud be too if he does get rehabilitated and joins the ASZ? I do like how the actor is playing Alpha Wolf too. But I don't believe he could get changed to good again. He's kinda of like those Termites who have become far too gone who'll only end one way: dead.
     
  20. drifter77

    drifter77 Member

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    Team Rick does not kill indiscriminately. Morgan was killing people just because they were there. Who has Rick or Carol killed for no reason? You could make the argument that Rick/Carol are now desensitized to killing people, but they've had cause for their killing. Not like Morgan who choked a kid out just because he bumped into him.

    And Morgan absolutely seems to be pushing his "religion" on others. Admonishing Carol for killing the axe-weilding maniac who just hacked a dude up in the street and was going for Morgan next. Morgan's philosophy might be fine if he's living alone somewhere where the consequences for letting evil people go aren't readily apparent. But in a community of other people, he's as dangerous in his inaction as the Governor or Termites or Wolves were in their action.

    In my opinion, Morgan has more blood on his hands post-Zen transformation than before. Not killing the 2 wolves led to them finding the backpack, then Alexandria, and killing 15 innocent people. Also led to the deaths of the 20 wolves themselves, and RPG. Not killing 2 evil people, led to 36 deaths right there.

    It's like declaring yourself a conscientious objector, then joining the Army and going to war anyway. Sitting in the foxhole saying "Nah, I'm not gonna kill anyone. It's not my thing."
     

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