Are you nuts?!

 

Even if Negan were to die this season, why would it be NOW instead of the mid season finale?

Really though we're going to have All Out War dragged all the way out till the end of season 8 I think. MAYBE I'm wrong and they end it at the mid season finale and start with the time jump in episode 9.

Also not sure why you think Negan is a "pervert". He has actually been pretty protective of women in this show. The things The Governor did with Maggie were far worse as far as pervert goes. And hey the president of the US can be considered a pervert, or how about Roy Moore who is leading in the polls to win Alabama Senate? They're being taken pretty seriously.

Negan is a cult leader. We've had plenty of them like Charles Manson in real life, but in the environment of the ZA it's even more amplified.

The fact that JDM has riled you up so much against the Negan character though shows he's doing his job as a top antagonist. Besides, they're showing more background and more of his real side in recent episodes, contradicting what you said about realism in the show.

 

I would like to see probably just another swing of power before Negan gets killed. I mean, Negan somehow gets the upper hand again (and maybe, even put the Rick's team kneels down on a line again and maybe one of them will get killed...imagine this, this could be very scary, even more scary than the first time.) before Rick gets the ultimate win. If Negan gets killed in this round, it is less believable that a powerful villian could be eliminated 'so easily'.

 

The Kennedy boys. Bill Clinton. Eliot Spitzer. Anthony Weiner, and Al Franken.

Just being fair and balanced.

 

Actually, I found the Governor to be horrible on the show and quite appreciate Negan's inclusion.

Andrea gives him some competition, but ultimately The Governor is my least favorite character on the show ever.

Negan to me is more realistic. He's an upfront manipulative asshole who uses his charm to persuade people into being subservient because he knows how to leverage his strengths as well as inspire as much as he can intimidate. Not all that different most men today, to be honest. He siezed control during a power vacuum and saw an opportunity to exert control over chaos by implementing rules, playing on people's fear, and making authoritarian promises of safety when people were at thei most vulnerable.

I found it unrealistic that The Governor would really be capable of that same persuasion at Woodbury. He wasn't compelling nor inspiring. I could never quite understand why anyone at Woodbury even listened to him and yet 80 something people just blindly trusted him for some reason that was never fully flushed out.

The irony is that Negan is actually more deserving of a political nickname.

 

Negan is like the epitomy of toxic masculinity when you think about it... minus the inclination towards sexual violence... but still very awful.

 

Elements of the feudal system with power, hierarchy, taxes and fear being present but measured against protection from the outside as the outside/others/unknown are scarier than what you understand.

 

lol

Are you not privy to the world leader's of human history?

 

#1 - Most men today share noteworthy qualities with Negan and seek to seize power in life by manipulation, violence and psychological terror? Haha... K.

#2 - The Governor's situation and rise is far more realistic. He took control as a charismatic "good guy" as a public face in the earlier days of the outbreak and hid all of his darker qualities and dirty deeds from his general population. His situation eroded and collapsed upon his fading mental stability and the illusion being revealed to Woodbury's rank and file.

Far more realistic and during a time period when the show was strong. The Governor saga and all of the interwoven character arc's were totally ****ing awesome compared to the inconsistency of S8.

 

Negan is a classic Machiavellian psychopath that uses brutal techniques in a brutal environment.

The epitome of so called "toxic masculinity" would include misogyny, homophobia and of course -- sexual violence. Negan is for lethal punishment for sexual violence, has women in high/officer roles in his command structure/military wing and utilizes people he see's as useful for positions without discrimination.

He keeps some wives for sexual recreation. Jadis was trying to negotiate the use of Rick as a sexual object -- humans like to ****.

You bringing gender-politics into the discussion as if it's relevant is laughable and so cliché of lingering 2010s PC drivel.

 

Maybe. I am making a statement that I may consider to be the case, but as with most things in life, what I say may not necessarily be the case. That said, I am more than happy to admit that I'm mistaken in that particular characterization of Negan and while I am not entirely convinced you were not responding with a d!ckish tone I will nevertheless concede that you raise valid points. When I mentioned toxic masculinity I was more-so in the mindset of thinking about how I perceive his immaturity, brutishness, and overall personality (and in my personal experiences, just the macho men I've met growing up), but again, you raise good counter-points.

As for The Governor and Season 3, that is something we'll just have to disagree on. I prefer what the show has accomplished since introducing Negan compared to the Governor's whole arc...

And as for #1, I should have clarified most men *in power*. I do genuinely think that there are several men in positions of authority that have used some combination of Negan's qualities to acquire status and power. There was a nice quote on Mindhunter stating something like "the real question is how does someone become president and not be a sociopath?"

It's not entirely unbelievable to think about how there is a whole suite of psychological characteristics and behavioral tendencies that correlate well with the attainment of power, whether it's in a relationship, at work, law enforcement, politics, whatever...

 

Yeah, but his personality doesn't line up with the definition of "toxic masculinity". "Toxic masculinity" refers to the idea that negative social norms about how a male "should be" negatively effects society at large; these include all of the things I listed in the previous post. Nothing about Negan is classical fronting "macho man", he's got masculine and effeminate qualities and his charismatic persona utilizes an array of psychologically manipulative mechanisms to control people.

What I'm saying is that while he's obviously masculine, he's not bursting at the seams with testosterone and he displays no qualities of any kind of gender based discrimination.

I highlighted this example because the comparison of Negan to that term is null and void. He also is not immature -- he utilizes demeaning jokes and humor as one of his manipulative quirks, but nothing about his style and operation is immature. He's a person in full control and to validate what I'm saying -- look at his response to his crew wanting to annihilate the other factions.

His response was "people are a resource!". While he's a psychopathic killer, he's a very cool headed and in control purpose based psychopathic killer and nothing about this character is immature. Nothing about tightly ordered militaristic operation or plans for rebuilding a functioning mini-civilization are immature.

........

Entertainment preferences are entertainment preferences, if you like Negan or Governor more and the show more now isn't what I'm talking about when talking about character realism.

Plant yourself in the zombie apocalypse and think about who you think ordinary survivors are going to rally around more willingly:

- A charismatic strong "good leader"
OR
- A charismatic strong psychopathic dictator

Now, certainly both would happen and the Negan character and a few good episodes here and there are what's keeping me still watching TWD; but the Governor's stature and fall were objectively very realistic. I'd say more realistic and I'm only countering your opinion that that whole arc wasn't realistic.

.......

And of course there have been endless amounts of people in positions of power correlating with both psychopathy, charisma and manipulative traits.

Read "The Prince" by Nicolo Machiavelli.

This still doesn't have anything to do with gender/identity politics.

 

I was just letting you know where I was coming from, right or wrong, with my original comment. I didn't entirely think the comment through at that moment and thank you for your clarifications. Like I have said, you've raised thoughtful points that have allowed me to rethink my earlier claim.

 

What we can fully agree on is that the Negan characterization is good and there wouldn't be much left of the show without his arc continuing. A lot of people don't like him and think he's a simplistic villain because of how he's operated so far.

The Governor had mental and emo issue's upfront and played jekyl and hyde, so on the surface that's more interesting.

The Negan character is being fleshed out slower and a lot of the show's writing right now is really bad, but Negan definitely is not the case.

He's showed a lot of subtle layers so far because they introduced him when he's in full control and running a tight ship. Even with that they included a lot of really nuanced things in his psychological control over others(which had me interested, because I knew they'd set up deeper stuff later), even though his characterization was very even keel and repetitive in S7 and up to now.

What's interesting now is that with conflict and him not being in control of the situation is that now the extra layers are going to come out.

The Savior's side of the coin(and some of Rick's side's conflict with it) to me is the only interesting element in the show right now, so killing off Negan = me done watching it.

 

This will be the mid season finale. You will have to wait to see who he got until after the break. The shocker nobody will expect is that it’s

 

The Governor, or Philip, is the other side of Rick's coin. Like Rick, Philip took leadership of his group because nobody else wanted the job. Philip also proved to be a good leader. Unfortunately, Philip's ego fed on "The Governor" nickname, and the tragic death of his daughter Penny drove him to insanity.

The Governor was a strong villain, particularly at manipulation. He manipulated a whole town, he manipulated Andrea, he briefly manipulated Rick, and he finally manipulated a new group. The sad thing is Philip had a second chance with a new family and a new group, but his ego and his insanity wouldn't let him move on.

 

I understand they emphasized how he used his charming "good" facade to rally people, used Andrea to underscore his ability to manipulate, and used Michonne and Merle to demonstrate what happens to those who dissent and ask compromising questions.. I should probably reiterate that the premise is realistic, but the implementation just fell flat to me. I simply didn't think he was a good effectual leader who could just get people to throw themselves into war... twice.. I couldn't see why The Governor could manipulate anyone and it's why I grew to love Michonne as much as I do because it wasn't like it was rocket science to call him out on his lies. I also found it increasingly more implausible that people would somehow be in a trance by his Southern draw and hospitality to the point Andrea decided not to kill him twice and Woodbury and Martinez camp residents would be so immediately willing to do what this one guy says just because he's... nice.

If I had to be more specific I would say the Governor felt like a one-dimensional portrayal of a realistic premise, which otherwise fell flat in practice. I just didn't find the arc compelling.

I get that he was a man driven mad by the emotional losses of his family and consumed by revenge, but yeah... Didn't compel me. Negan uses a combination of intimidation/inspiration that I personally felt was executed in a more believable way. Hundreds of people listen to this one guy because well either you genuinely believe he is some savior or that you don't want to end up working the fence for him out of fear.

To me, Negan is a much more solid comparison to Rick and a better example of the "other side of the coin." Negan wants people to work with him to rebuild civilization and realizes that he may have to work alongside some of his enemies (e.g. Sasha) to do so and sees the bigger picture of his actions. The Governor saw people as a resource in so far that he can use them to enact revenge on Rick and when they failed to be a means to his vengeful end he killed them. I never felt the Governor grasped the big picture and was a short-sighted vengeful man that failed at every opportunity to do something more with the people and resources he was given. That makes him a great psychopath who doesn't ever learn from experience (i.e. insane), but not a good leader in my opinion.