You deal in twisting the facts here at least, to suit the illogical argument that Morgan is no worse than other non-killer members of the group. Members who contribute and don't put the group at a compounding amount of risk, continually increasing and heading into further insanity. One thing after another.

Glenn and Maggie did not fire upon the Governor's forces in the return? Firing at feet or not in the 1st assault is irrelevant, they were apart of a group that were prepared to defend their compound with lethal force, I don't remember if none of the Woodburians other than Carl got killed but can review the episode this week since I've re-worked my way through S2 this week.

Then to pose a bigger question on the matter even if Glenn or Maggie were not aiming to kill, were they getting in the way of any of their group members defending their compound even if it meant lethal response?

No.

But Morgan did.

Well that's debatable, but probable, as Glenn couldn't even put down Nicholas and it would be down to if Glenn could kill over Maggie, which I think is possible. Glenn's own negligent actions with people have caused he himself a lot of trouble, but this is still nowhere related to Morgan's warped reality and actions.

They are stupid for being surprised/shocked at execution of the Termites, but again - did they get in the way? Would a single one of them keep a Termite loosely held without the group knowing about it? Did any of them jump in to fight or stop Rick and the tougher minded members of the group from doing what was necessary?

No.

Further - After that the group didn't dissolve into a lack of trust and conflict of interest like the situation between Morgan and Carol has, like Morgan and Rick is starting to and will.

It can't be stressed enough - these issue's are unrelated and Morgan's situation is unique.

Nah, Glenn has never done anything mutinous, nor any of the regular crew. They're all mostly team players, now they aren't perfect and there's group politics like there would be in reality, but they mostly get along.

Morgan taking it upon himself to force his views into the stiuation, which have harmed the situation without honesty and then to deceitfully hide the Wolf and then knock Carol out over it is 100% mutinous and rebelling to the group.

What are you arguing? That Morgan isn't mutinous and is defending himself? He was both mutinous and defending himself/a maniac killer he had hidden from the group he's done nothing but screw over since arriving. Something he even partially recognizes.

Glenn/Maggie this season are getting on my nerves and I'm not even saying that they aren't both in great need of getting some ice in their veins, but it's logical to think they'd both shoot maniac killers like the Wolves in a vital self defense situation.

Never would they let them flee unknownst to the group. The group is transparent to each other by this point.

So in your world keeping a homicidal maniac who was apart of a group that just slaughtered members of your own without telling the group and then knocking out a member of the group to defend him, under extreme circumstances no less, is the same as withholding something that would possibly hurt group moral(especially with how weak they were in the start) in the early phases of an apocalypse that we are just figuring out?

Something that he didn't even know as confirmed in their early delusions and was bewildered to see confirmed when Shane rose up as undead.

Sure... that's related. No differences at all.

A for effort, but defending Morgan is going to be rooted in the same delusion that Morgan himself operates under.

 

Well, Dale for sure. His intentions were good, but he was a clown. I finished off S2 this week and it was interesting watching it for a second time without having seen it for a while, I have a new appreciation for the social dynamics in that season and the causes of all of the conclusions.

Definitely. And he did try his best and was right for the most part until he became too unhinged. He's tragic and he would have been damn useful to the group had he been able to keep it together. It's really amazing that Rick wasn't far off from getting to reality and Rick is a far more mentally strong despite also making stupid decisions themselves. Had they been able to work out the situation before it melted down and Shane able to keep it together(this is the debatable thing, I am not sure, Lori really messed dude up), they'd have made a good team going forward.

Well that's really interesting and adds an entire new dynamic to that ordeal. If the show would have shown that somehow, such as Rick picking up an empty gun, that would have been a nice piece of psychological drama.

But that's not in the official canon, so I have to go by that he was hesitant and strongly considering it, but couldn't do it and then Rick baited him and the rest is history.

His mental degradation was a liability regardless, but in rewatching I really saw the steps that it took to get there and it was a bit more than I remembered, so that gives me a bigger appreciation of the character.

Oh she was terrible, but not as foul as I had recalled on my first viewing. She herself is a mess in dealing with all of this crazy ZA situation like others. But you've got to be smart enough to read to just back off of the guy and let it go.

His decisions in S1 and most of S2 til the Randall/Kill Rick ordeal were all mostly sound, but like you said the group was in delusional state to the reality of their world and weren't ready for that. Had he been acting similar in S3 even, he'd have been much better received and of current he'd be received with open ears(for the most part). The rest is also like you said just his lack of being able to judge situations and read people, Rick is far superior at that.

With people often you've got to ease them into things, he was hot headed. But he was right no less on all of those issues dealing with group safety and threats. He was also right about things to do with Rick/Carl and numerous other issue's.

What stands out as a glaring thing he was wrong about was going to Ft Benning. As Dave and Tony described in the bar - it was overrun.

So that would have been as bone headed as Rick's CDC idea. They were all grasping at straws in those early days.

Definitely not, I don't like Lori at all. I don't like how she did Shane wrong(and Rick in the process), I don't like how she demeaned the other female characters and I especially don't like how irresponsible it is to get pregnant in the zombie apocalypse and that's also accounting for her male counterparts not being safe. A pregnant woman and an infant is always a liability in this place, we've got to be smarter - at least til you find some kind of stable sanctuary.

But her death was harsh. It resonated with me. Nobody deserves that.

[/QUOTE]

I'd agree that Rick never was in a situation of having guilt over killing an innocent ally type. However, I think the amount they experienced way overdoes something like that, Rick's got a lot of blood on his hands in the manner of both ill timed decisions and necessary self defense. I can't imagine that the single isolated thing of killing Otis can compare to all of the stuff Rick has had to mentally endure.

Even the Lori thing, which sent Rick off his hinges temporarily - Shane would have imploded, lol, had he been around to that point.

That's why I say with Shane I'd like to think that if the situation were different that he could have mentally gotten it together, stabilized and become a partner again to Rick and valueable asset to the group, but I think with him it was going to be something to make him implode one way or another and it chalks up to mental fortitude.

The Lori/baby situation, Otis situation and then group politics situation while still dealing with the shock and horror of wising up to the apocalypse is certainly heavy stuff to go through and enough to break someone, but the shit Rick's been through to still have it together is pretty amazing.

Same for Carol in fact, my two favorite characters. But she may be cracking a bit related to this Wolf/Morgan trash and general weight on her.

Carol may individually have been through the most emotionally heavy stuff out of anyone.

 

Yes, but then he released 5 with a gun out into the open and that ended up disabling the RV, which in turn meant the herd made their way to ASZ and now we are in our current setting.

Morgan's too much of a liability to allow to live. I suspect he'll be killed off shortly. If not, I will be very let down and this season started off excellent then slowly went into bad writing. I couldn't believe Tara and Rosita letting that Wolf go and dropping their guns and a couple of other things.

And Morgan is just annoying in general. He was a great character and they turned him into something more annoying than Father Gabriel and I didn't think that was possible.

I'd rather have 5 Beth's around singing than have Morgan around.

 

Dale is comparable to Morgan, though I'm not sure if it was extreme. He wanted to let Randall go despite Randall being an open threat to the group.

I tend to think that(as much as I like Shane), if he were going to survive, there were two/three ways/things that had to happen.
1) Lori never had that chat on the windmill. Might've taken a little while longer, but Shane would have pulled through. She was one of his main flaws.
2) Shane left the group after killing Randall and returned after season 4 or 5. Out of the two, I think this was best for him - he would have had time to get over Lori andI guess Rick, while not adapting as fast as he did after killing Shane, would have went through a bunch of changes during the prison break.

Rick and Shane would have wiped the governor and Woodbury straight to hell. It would have been amazing to see them together during that season.

Going by canon, I would agree - I do believe Shane considered murdering Rick, but he couldn't do it. He gave Rick too many chances to let me believe his intention was to kill him.

Miss the character. The show is missing wildcard-type characters such as him and Merle.

Agreed, she wasn't just selfish on the having sex with Shane but with everything else, such as forcing the cult of true womanhood on Andrea, who was stepping out of her shell and trying to do something else productive for the group. She should have allowed him to leave when he wanted to and pushed him toward that before he really mentally degraded.

agreed. People don't want smart tactics, they want charisma. They want to feel warm and fuzzy. Shane wasn't their person. Aside from that, his mentality (before he lost it completely) was that of a survivalist-mentality - the same mentality that Rick now has. (Besides still having his charismatic ability intact.)

While both ideas had a deadend, they were both logical. The CDC, even if it didnt have a cure, would be a good place to hole up. Ft. Bennings would have been a logical place to look for protection. But yeah, everyone still had little crazy ideas floating around in the initial apocalypse.

Rick was dead, the world went to hell: they had every right to enjoy a sexual diversion during the chaos.
But I agree with you that they should have been more careful.
(Though, just saying, effective and safe methods only became available during the 20th century and they may have had more important needs than to go through every shop in town in search of birth control pills) Shane says they carried on quite a bit before Rick got back, and I think it plays a big part - they didn't do it once or twice.

I know. Horrible stuff. I spent many hours wanting to punch her in the facebut I admit her end was very sad.

kind of disagree with you there, it's quite possible but there was also her baby (and in Shane's mind, it's his baby), as well as Carl. So I think he may have slipped by the edge there, I don't think he would implode(yet?).

I don't think that's the only viable option;Shane could have gone in Carol's or even the Governor's direction. If his presentation was a little better and he got over Lori, him and Rick would have been unstoppable together. Imagine Shane with season 3 and present Rick on the same page.

Agree there, Carol's been evolving since S1. Definitely grew on me as a character.

 

Well, Randall was with a group who, yes, fired on Rick/Herschel/Glenn, but only after Rick said he just killed their two friends. So Randall was not the direct threat the Alpha Wolf was/is. If released, Randall may or may not have gotten back to his group who may or may not have been able to find and attack the farm. A lot of if's there. While Alpha Wolf just attacked Alexandria and was telling anybody who'd listen that if gets loose he's going to kill everyone.

 

While I can see your point, I do think that Randall was a threat. He constantly lied to whoever he was with and thought might free him. I believe if Randall was freed he could care less about Rick's group; sure the wolf Morgan has can kill by himself but I don't see that much of a difference. They were/are both threats.

Especially in the woods where he was chuckling with Shane about how well he would get along with the group.

 

Randall was not as harmless as he pretended to be.
In "18 Miles out" look how he killed the walker. He stabbed in her head many times shouting "You like that bitch?".
Also I'm pretty sure he DID raped the girls too.

 

Morgan's a liability but he's also a plus. Is he a Net liability -- probably/maybe. He's responsible for letting the wolves loose, not dispatching the lead wolf into that great-wolf-lair in the sky, and for knocking out Carol. But he's not responsible for Tara, Rosita (totally out of character) giving the wolf their guns instead of, at least Rosita, putting a bullet in brain. That's on the writers, not Morgan.

As to the story-- you really have to ask yourself (although the story hasn't) why Rick decided to run a marathon back to Alexandria to directly lead the herd he was desperately trying to divert away from Alexandria right to the gates of the home of his son and daughter. Since I don't think there is any reason for it, I chalk it up to lazy, bad writing.

Almost the only non-bad writing/presentation this season has been the Morgan story -- annoying and upsetting as the road they have had this chracter take is. A wonderful twist to this story going forward would be if Morgan finally comes to his senses. The group tolerated Rick's period of insanity, so did we the viewers.

Me-- all I'm hoping for the second half of S6 is that the writers/directors/producers have given up on t(1) the hop-scotch manner of presenting the story; (2) the endless Rick ,"speechifying" -- my God, if anything would drive Andrew Lincoln to breach whatever contract he has with TWD, it is the demand the writers have made on him to endlessly and loudly repeat the same speech to everyone around him; Same with regard to Jessie, Michonne and Deanna. What's wrong with them anyway -- is it just too easy and some kind of cost--savings to cut and paste the last speech into the script, and leave early to get home?

I diverge. The Morgan story is more interesting than most of the ridiculous other stuff they did in S6 so far.

 

Not the direct threat, but being that his camp was supposedly not too far away and him being smarter/more dangerous than he let them believe, he was a threat. His group was full of bad people and he had no issue being in the group, he also would change his story to whoever was in the room with him and was a sneaky little bastard.

I'd rate Randall as only a slightly less threat than a single Alpha Wolf. But the situations are quite different since everyone knew of Randall and everyone got to speak their peace about it, with Morgan deceptively keeping it secret.

 

Only in the sense that Dale was a bit of a pacifist and abhorred violence towards other humans. Dale's honesty and open policy toward everyone, even with stuff he objected negates a direct comparison to Morgan. Though he did try to hide the guns.

Dale was a well meaning idiot with some good qualities. Morgan is only in extremes.

The contrast of their views against the groups is sort of comparable and we can definitely draw relation to Randall/the guns but as characters and people they're a universe apart.

Ooooooo, that would have kicked ass!

I do too. I love gray characters. I loved Merle and he wasn't nearly the asshole he was initially made out to be. A troubled man and certainly bigoted, but stone cold loyal to those he cared about and his combat/survival skills are any addition to a group. Provided he behaves.

Agreed. Just going to maintain that Rick even now is still a bit more inclusive to others than the route Shane was going. Not that he's super inclusive, which has people thinking Rick's a mega asshole at this point.

Absolutely. Nothing about the Shane/Lori situation when they thought Rick was dead was offensive or out of line to me. Rick himself even understood and handled it with poise.

Just depends. The degradation in S2 was more than I recalled, like I said. Since I had not watched it in a while I primarily remembered Lori as the catalyst for him becoming unhinged, but it was definitely more.

Your idea of him leaving after killing Randall(without Lori shaking her tail in his face), or the group sending him away and him reuniting with them in S4 or 5 is more plausible to him stabilizing than my idea of Rick not killing him and them making up on still fragile basis...

I think Lori would have come up again and again and Lori dying and the baby issue causing him to still melt down. Although all of that is just speculative idea's.

Shane mentally stable and S4-current Rick would solve almost any issue, especially when you've got Queen Carol in the mix as well.

Shane wouldn't have the attachment to someone like Morgan and would see through him. Shane would have just capped him like he was going to cap Randall if they didn't get in the way.

I began the series like everyone else thinking she wouldn't be lasting long and what a useless character. Wow... look at her now.

At this point there's a case that she'd be a more sound leader of the group than Rick. Not all the way, but a case can be made, she's the Queen.

 

Aside from him bailing Daryl and Aaron out of trouble, I can see of no other way his presence has been a plus to the group since arriving in Virginia. Net liability is a certainty if we classify a liability as a threat to the life of other he's allied with.

I really don't think he had much of a choice if he wanted to live, nor any way to divert them. The RV was disabled by the wolves that Morgan let go and him without a vehicle can only run, which you eventually will tire and get eaten. Likewise he wouldn't have been able to get them very far.

I see the Morgan story as interesting in concept, but executed in a cheesy way. I think it fits with the rest of the writing this season so far. Rick's period of insanity was quite different, dysfunctional insanity vs. functional extremist insanity.

The speeches need to stop but they also need to either get rid of Morgan's current way or kill him off. It's lame.

 

Hey now! Let's leave poor ol' Dale out of this. He was a peace loving man and wanted to hold on to the world as long as possible, but the guns were being safeguarded at Hershel's behest. My friend and I always come to verbal blows over this no matter how many times it comes up. I do feel he was being naive over Randall, but he was only trying to comply with Hershel's rules so as to ensure they did not cause the group to be thrown out. If nothing was said about the guns, there would only have been the issue with Andrea's firearm (which he made good for IMHO.)

 

The herd was heading for ASZ regardless of what Rick did, as they were drawn by the horn and gunfire. I think Rick figured he could do more good if he made it back inside rather than, you know, being killed by the herd outside. Hence the "run for his life" sequence.

 

He was still tripping out over Randall after Hershel gave the group the green light to do whatever they saw fit with Randall. The realization about the walkers and skirmish in the bar changed Hershel permanently and instantly.

Dale was not that bad and was well meaning, just delusional. Not overtly dangerous like Morgan.

 

**** Dale

 

Also how Randall lied to Daryl and said he didn't know where his group was.

He then told Carl he would take him and his family to his group, which he supposedly didn't know where they were. He later tells Shane how far from the farm/woods they were and is chuckling about how good he would get along with the group.

There was this part where he was talking about that (his group) and how they raped the man's daughters....I'm sure there was a flicker of enjoyment at the memory before he denied he had anything to do with it. Also the way he was like "BUT I didn't DO anything, it was them guys!"

And I know this is outside the characters' knowledge but Nicotero stated that Randall was a part of the rapes.

 

True, everyone knew about it, but what if Dale had convinced them to let Randall live? It would still end the same as the situation where Rick got attacked in the RV.

But it was different

Another option I forgot to mention is that both Andrea and Shane took off. They could use each other as a shoulder to lean on. Or maybe just bang buddies if Shane hadn't got over Lori yet. Then by the time they meet up again Shane may have had time to recover from the drilling Lori did to his head.

They made the show interesting. It's no fun just having the good guys (pure good for the most part) play around, sit around, and play chess every episode without any ruckus or entertaining characters.

Everyone does have their own flaws. Rick is a bit more crazy then Shane but I will give him this; he's kept it together a lot longer.


Also quick sidenote; I think being forced to kill his best friend plated a massive part in that: there's not too much else that can be worse than that.

yeah, couldn't fault them for that; it's not like many others would be different. Lori - Shane was there as a shoulder to cry on; why NOT hook up with a guy who WANTED to keep her and her son safe? Shane was taking up the role of being a best friend and doing what he thought Rick would want. It was Lori's reaction once Shane got back that irked me.

I'm not saying it's entirely impossible just that I don't think it would cause him to go over the edge yet. Possibly, assuming he had left not only by himself but taken Andrea along with him, he could have pulled through.
So it's not impossible, but it's also not a 100% go-go, as he has others he cares about and there are other factors to be considered.

that would be interesting to see go down.

taking into consideration that he's a hothead, I don't think it would be as out of character for him to have a reaction similar to Carol's. And it would have been amazing to see them both make an attempt. Also the plus that if both of them got in, the Wolf wouldn't stand a chance (whether or not either of them got knocked out, the other could finish the job).

I actually thought this back in Season 4 when she made the tough decision that Rick couldn't. Of course this is all up to speculation but it's a thought.

 

So... Shane 357 and Lonut = one person? Or is it me?

 

A fact is a fact, can't be twisted. It is what it is. If A=B and B=A, then A must be B and B must be A. That is logic. What you fail to realise is Morgan has flaws and views which have been seen in other characters at one point or another. These flaws and views have always had unintended consequences, but the characters haven't been condemned for them.

Yes, this is relevant. Morgan drove the 5 Wolves away from ASZ allowing a potential threat to survive. This is the same course of action that Morgan has taken. They even had an opportunity to kill the Governor, but didn't. Given that they firing down upon the Governor's forces they could have massacred them. Using your logic Glenn and Maggie are responsible for the deaths caused by the Governor since the Woodburian's second assault on the prison. It's really hard for Glenn and Maggie to get in anyone else's way when it was just them.

Glenn's failure to kill the Governor during the assault when given the opportunity supports my statement. Also, It supports my statement that their philosophies and actions are related. Following these views will almost always result in unintended consequences.

All of this occurs suddenly. There is no time for debate. It would have been pointless to attempt to stop them.

No, this event didn’t result in a lack of trust and conflict of interest. But we have seen Rick and Carol’s relationship erode to this point. Rick pointedly told Carol he didn’t trust her anymore after he found out she killed David and Karen. In fact he trusted her so little he banished her. Also Carol’s actions in this instance mirror Morgan’s current actions.
I’m not sure Rick’s and Morgan relationship has started to dissolve or will dissolve.
Yes, each situation is unique, but parallels can be drawn between them.

Morgan has not forced his views upon anyone. He’s attempting to follow his philosophy. How has he harmed the situation? He has hidden the Wolf from the group to protect Wolf’s life. Carol has threatened to kill Morgan. Does Morgan not have the right to defend himself? Carol’s actions brought on the escape of the Wolf. Perhaps Carol should have waited, the Wolf wasn’t going anywhere.\
How has Morgan screwed over the group? I think you’ve misinterpreted Morgan’s statement about right and wrong. He was referring to when it was right to kill and when it is wrong not to kill. He is confused. So he chooses not kill anymore. Soon Morgan will be forced to make a choice between killing to save a life or not killing and losing a life.

Rick has withheld information which is vital to the group’s survival. I really don’t see how this would hurt morale. Suppose one of the members had been killed and they didn’t know this. The potential to lose other member just increased greatly. Rick knew what Jenner had told him was true when he saw the two guards in 18 Miles Out. Also, he wasn’t bewildered by Shane’s rising. He totally understood what had happened.
Speaking of 18 Miles Out, Rick did fight Shane to prevent Shane from killing Randall. This is similar to Morgan and Carol’s fight. One fighting the other to protect a potential threat.
Morgan hasn't had any group interaction or exposure to other people since the beginning of the ZA. All of his actions and thought processes are like the groups thought processes before they had much interaction with people outside the group. “We don’t kill the living”

 

I agree. I disagree with his actions but don't think he intentionally hurts people. However, he is a threat (albeit indirectly) that needs to be dealt with. Personally, I do hope if they go through with this, they exile him but do not kill him, as his actor's performance is being butchered on Morgan's "we don't kill" logic.

But I think one of @lonut 's points is that Morgan keeps the Wolf being alive a secret instead of informing the group.