Morgan's issues can only be sorted out with some hot lead to the brain.

 

If you have someone who strongly disagrees with you about a favorite tv show or sports team or hobby, then it's okay to agree to disagree.

If you have someone who's actively promising to murder everyone he can, including women and children, then that's a threat. You don't reason with a threat. You don't hope a threat will see the light and change. The only surefire way of dealing with a threat is to kill it.

 

Randall's situation posed a lot more gray areas than the Wolf. Even Shane acknowledged the possibility that Randall could be a productive member of the Farm. Randall also didn't go looking to kill Rick and Hershel and Glenn in the town. It was a meeting engagement, two of Randall's group were killed inside the bar. And from the sound of the voice it wasn't Randall who was talking to Rick after the gunfight.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the contention that Rick has become more like Shane. I can't think of a person that Rick put down who didn't pose an imminent threat to his people. In fact, the opposite is true, since he accepted Tara even though she was part of the last prison assault. And all Lamson had to do was stop.

Glenn at least had the sense of responsibility to tell others about what Nicholas had done.

As to the question in bold, in our society we use the phrase "reasonable doubt" to draw the line when it comes to guilt or innocence. I don't have any reasonable doubt that the Wolf, even locked up, poses a severe risk to the community and needs to be put down.

 

You can't exercise the philosophy of "all people can change" without some kind of penal or mentoring system. They are fighting for their lives almost every moment. You can not afford to see if the person next to you is going to change from a psychopathic killer to a do gooder when you have to constantly turn your back to fight off walkers or whatever threat. Its a idealist philosophy that has no structure in place to implement it. Its a philosophy that puts everyone's life in danger and a philosophy that psychopath survivors like the Wolfs and Terminis will pray on every single chance.

Altruism and morality have their place, but the truth is always in the middle. A philosophy of 'all life is precious' is just the other extreme of let's kill everyone we see. Both are extreme black and white beliefs that have no place in reality and must be stamped out where ever seen. As we see in the real world almost all social problems come from idealist extremest belief systems. Morgan was once a wolf of his own, he is currently the opposite of the wolf, but always he is just as dangerous unless he starts seeing the middle ground.

 

Not even the same.... Shane was selfish, postured for the group but never really cared for anyone else. How many times did he try to leave or split the group? Rick may have harden more into a kill first ask questions later kind of guy, but he's still about keeping the group alive and together.
Morgan's beliefs now are good for 1 person but not a group dynamic, how do you put 1 persons value over another if you truly believe all life is valuable? The truth is, in implementation, this belief is almost impossible to safely execute without the loss of life, in an apocalyptic world.
I do laugh at all the tough ass talk here on these boards. I wonder how many would actually be more like Nicholas, or that punk ass Ron? Short of any military veterans here, I doubt any of us really know what we'd do, or how we'd evolve.

 

First of all, Rick is extending a little courtesy to someone he feels he knows and respects...but, trust me, Rick will Put Down Morgan in a heartbeat if he finds out about the Wolf in the basement.. And Nick Never said to Glenn that he will kill him and everyone in Alexanderia if he gets free.. Glenn would have Killed him instantly if he did.

 

I do not want to imagine the amount of deaths we'd seen if he hadn't. Rick adapted to a world where people kill people for survival. For sport, in some cases. I think Rick is still on the good side considering he doesn't go around killing everyone in his sight. We've seen worse, remember?

Carol changed from an abused, insecure woman to someone who has learnt that she can do things. She learnt she has value, she has skills, she is intelligent, she can do things. All of those things were most likely erased from her head by years of abuse.

Erm, a robot with no care of other humans? Michonne sticking with Andrea and caring for her proved she did. Michonne built a wall around herself as protection, not only for people like the Governor, but also for hurting because of other lives. Nothing indicated she didn't have feelings or emotions, like robots. What changed, is that Michonne accepted she cares about them. She cared about people all along. Moreso, she accepted, like Beth said in S4?, that hurt is part of the package when you care about people.

Yes, everyone changed. But I disagree that everyone changes. My grandmother is a manipulative liar that hurts others for her own well-being. She has always been. She went to a monastery several times, converted to a long list of religions, has seen several therapists and yet she always falls back into who she is. That's who she is and no therapist or pacifist is going to change this.

I think some of you people, and Morgan too, have to learn to accept that some people are just messed up. And learn to let go of current world morals.

If we look at Morgan's bad days he was a lot different from the Wolf. The only thing they had in common was that they murdered people. Morgan however, was obviously [visibly] traumatized, angry. He didn't kill for fun/pleasure. He didn't visibly enjoy killing them. His killing was a lot deeper than that. When Eastman knocked him out and locked him up, his PTSD was very obvious. The whole way he carried himself was different from the Wolf's.

Now the Wolf on the other hand is, softly said, a maniac. He shows nothing of emotions, trauma's. He talks about killing people like it's his entertainment. After hearing Morgan's story he's not the slightest bit wavering. He didn't get angry or sad; he simply found it amusing. Morgan and the Wolf are very different. If you just observe them a bit that's obvious. Would you really want to have such a man live among you and your family? Or exile him and risk more lives taken?

Again I don't like your comparison much here. Shane was ultimately selfish, caring only for himself, Lori and Carl. Shane would be willing to try and keep the group alive, but if there is only a risk of his own survival, I don't think he'd have to think twice about turning his back on the group for his own sake. I like Shane, kind of, but he was selfish. He was also obviously mentally unstable.

Rick is selfish in a way, but he's selfish for the group. He's risked his life often for others. He's skeptical these days but he still goes a long way to save people including himself. And while he has been mentally unstable after Lori's death, I don't think he is anymore. Sure, he has inner demons about Shane, but come on man. Everyone killing their best friend for whatever reason would have them lol.

You also compared Nicholas to the Wolf in another post. How?????? Nicholas was unstable and troubled but he was never anything like the Wolf. I don't think Nicholas had it in him to be a cold-blooded killer. Even if he had killed Glenn, it would've eaten him alive. He would commit suicide nonetheless. Nicholas has a conscience, he has emotions, he's traumatized, he's scared and troubled. Or was. He doesn't kill for entertainment.

 

I think right now Morgan has got it in his head that if he helps the alpha wolf, treating his wound and showing him compassion, that he will be grateful and change his ways. Morgan doesn't understand that his captive has already "changed" and is too far gone to come back from that change. While Morgan is right that people can change, he doesn't understand that sometimes that change is bad.

 

Change is speculation we don't know the wolf character prior to the ZA was a good man. Morgan from what we seen was a dedicated family man. Sure there could always be more to a typical family man but from what we saw Morgan was a contributing member of society and a team player. This is the person Rick met and remembered and why he spared Morgan the second meeting becasue he knew who Morgan was inside and knew how the ZA can effect people and how they can come back.

Its a gigantic leap to say that Alpha wolf would be coming back from anything. Its possible Alpha wolf was a killer before the ZA. Just like Terminis Alpha Wolf kills without remorse and also shows an enjoyment on the torment of their victims. That is not killing because of a trauma or a temporary psychosis. That is pure psychopathic behavior. Neither Morgan nor anyone around Morgan are equipped to deal with that. The person would need a team of psychologists, prescription drugs, a method of confinement and 24 hour supervision. None of those things are possible in their current circumstance to try and allow someone a chance to change who has already burned people before their eyes.

Morgan is confused. There is a big difference between coming back and changing. Morgan came back and because he did he thinks people can change but he is mistaken. People rarely actually change but they can heal from trauma which is Morgan's story.

 

Brilliantly stated!

 

I tend t o agree with Morgan to some level. And I also think, when he told Rick, that he thought about changing his way (that not all life is precious), he was specifically thinking of that Alpha Wolf.
And that is his only flaw: I like they way, Michonne is dealing with it or Tara. They generally believe in the good of people, but they learned the hard way, when it is time to start shooting back. I think, Morgan has to make this experience the hard way too - and it will be the Alpha Wolf. Up until now, he was never really in danger from a living human, only from the walkers (I don't really count those two guys, who tried to attack him when he was still psychopathic, they weren't a real thread compared to the Governour or the Termites for example).
I think he should entertain the thought of self defense - and the defense of innocents. And make a few adjustments to his code (most life is precious) and he will be fine - better than Rick is at the moment for sure. But I guess, there is hope for RIck too. After all, he saved the boy instead of taking the chance to run for a car.

As for Rick killing Morgan if he finds out about the Wolf: I don't think, that that will happen, I think, in the end, Morgan will kill that wolf.I just hope, it will be, before someone else (Denise for example ) dies by the hand of that Wolf.

 

Great points. People don't seem to be able to differentiate the different kinds of killing sometimes. As you pointed out - a big, big difference between psychopathic thrill killing and then PTSD mania killing.... with far away from both killing to defend yourself and your family, even if such is preemptive.

I cringe when I see the comparisons between psychopathic killers and the self defense killings of the main group. Specifically because the main group still exhibits loads of help towards other humans, because they are down deep good people.

Being able to recognize the differences in the details is what makes someone good at reading situations.

Morgan in the state he is in now cannot come back to the state he was in S1. Others have pointed out how being a liability to himself and others is nothing new, he's made highly irrational bad decisions from the start and living with the guilt is what created his PTSD to begin with and sent him off into "clear".

The current method is a coping mechanism to deal with all of the guilt, when that folds(and it will), what's next?

Morgan is 100% wrong, has always been 100% wrong and needs to be put to rest.

 

Wrong. Some people there is no turning back. I am all for second chances. But a Wolf and what they represent and do. Death on sight. I think it is a duty as a survivor to help thin out the really bad Non Dead. This wolf is bad and needs to go

 

I loved Shane. I did not think he was selfish. I thought he was completely frustrated with Rick's weaknesses -- and torn between his love for Rick as his best friend from childhood, his love for Lori and Carl, and his belief Rick was too weak or unstable to protect them.

Look at the history of Rick's story since then. Rick has had big successes and even bigger failures. Some of the failures, for sure, were due to bad luck -- e.g. Lori's death due to Andrew; some were due to Rick's mistakes; some to Rick's arrogance. How can you hate Shane, who only ever killed people to increase the chances of survival he loved (Otis, primarily) and Rick -- who has killed out of outright callousness and meanness over and over and over: orange back-up man screaming and running for his life (and that one is on Michonne too), Lamson (sorry, Bob, you can't come back); Rick's total prejudice against the Alexandrians - like chewing Tara out for shooting walkers who were attacking Spencer; Rick happily murdering Pete (the ASZ's only competent doctor) over his lust for Pete's wife; and so many other truly hateful things Rick has done that were not survival driven.

Rick is not a hero any more -- granted, he has tried. But as failure upon failure has stacked up -- some partially his fault, some not at all his fault -- he has just become a bigger and bigger a$$. This time when his scheme failed, in part, he led half the herd to ASZ (if his mini-marathon run was even credible.) Rick is a jerk -- even when he doesn't need to be. Yeah, Morgan is misguided right now. But Rick is not much better -- just the opposite extreme. Whether it is Morgan, Rick or any other character - I am sick of this PTSD excuse for being bad and making bad decisions. In a ZA, I don't think people who let PTSD govern their decisions would survive.

 

No, the point is that it's not worth risking people's lives at the hopes that somoene can change. There's an equal probability people can't change as that they can. The governor and the people at terminus didn't change for the better, they changed to be even more evil. That idea is that you assess someeone's background and figure out if they likely can change or not. IE, use you brain and make an educated, and informed decision rather than making a blind guess. I'm probably gonna spare a house wife in the hopes she can change. I'm not going to spare a raving cultist who forces people get eaten alive by zombies and collects human torsos for shits and giggles. You're basically saying someone like Michonne and someone like the governor have an equal chance at change. That's just plain false and been proven untrue by the show.

When you let someone live, they can potentially end up KILLING other lives. Therefore, you've actually done a disservice to life overall. In modern society the whole point of locking people up is that we don't want to take away life, but we don't want killers to take away more lives, so we keep them restrained. Since you can't do that in a ZA you have to sacrifice one life for the good of 50 others.

I've said this 20 times in other posts but I will always say it.

Morgan isn't wrong because he doesn't want to kill.

Morgan is wrong because he is keeping a dangerous person around and NOT TELLING ANYONE WHO IS IN CHARGE ABOUT IT. Do you find it morally acceptable to lie to the people you care about regarding a killer being housed right next to their house?

 

Exactly why Pete died, his emotions and ignorance of a superior force. Poor sheltered ASZ's... It's not PTSD...Rick isn't going to explain himself over and over. If you think that's being a jerk, realize time costs lives. While I'm standing here explaining myself, a zombie just walked up behind you and bit your dumb ass.

 

I dunno, I mean how long has the ZA been going on now? 2 years?
If someone steps to your group like that after this much time, it's likely that this is what they've changed into and there's no place for them in your area.
Still not feeling Morgan's philosophy.

 

I am neither a Morgan fan nor hate him.

I think his philosophy is OK as long as everyone knows. Since his arrival, no one asked him and he did not volunteer to tell anyone. (Not counting the fact that when he saved Daryl+Aaron, he told them ''all life is precious''). I suppose, Deanna had not interviewed him yet as the whole town was just too busy to solve the quarry problem. Now, the attack by the Wolves indirectly made his philosophy coming to the surface. This is good.

Similarly, his jailing of the Alpha Wolf is not a problem as long as everyone knows. Morgan is keeping it a secret. This is the one part that I think he is wrong. Even though there is a walker problem outside the wall, I think Morgan should have told Rick at that meeting.
Perhaps Morgan assumes that the Wolf will be killed as soon as his existence is known. But I think he still should.

If Rick gives Morgan a choice: either you take the Wolf away and be exiled together or, you stay but the Wolf be killed.
I think Morgan will pick the first option.

Anyway, I expect the fate of the Wolf to be determined not by Morgan or Rick or Carol but by the walkers.
The only question is whether the Wolf will die in a, sort of, 'heroic' fashion to bring a little credit to Morgan or he will die in an, sort of, evil way to discredit Morgan.