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Rick/Daryl different sides on recruitment.

Discussion in 'Episode 606 - Always Accountable' started by Ionut, Nov 16, 2015.

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  1. Hope the Savior

    Hope the Savior Member

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    I don't know if the following will fully help, but maybe it will further explain how I judge whether recruiter error negates the benefits of spontaneous recruitment when active recruitment is suspended.

    Recruiters endure the same risk(s) as any shelter-less survivor or fellow community member who ventures outside the wall: injury, loss of property, death, etc. In other words, the risks inherent in the survival aspect of the recruitment process are the same as those when outside the wall. As such, I don't perceive a recruiter suffering such losses as an automatic con against/deduction for recruitment because these are the same vulnerabilities any person faces when on the road.

    Active recruitment (i.e., purposefully sending recruiters out to search for survivors) is currently discouraged because it could expose the community to external factors, for which it is ill-prepared, and because the community would unnecessarily risks resources and energy it simply cannot afford to expend or exhaust. But an Alexandrian outside the walls who spontaneously recruits doesn't equate to automatically judging recruitment in a particular context as wrong or asinine. Recruitment can still be smart even if the recruitment process goes awry, and a failed recruitment process, given its particular context, does not necessarily reflect against recruitment in general, active or otherwise.

    Daryl losing his crossbow and bike was the only downside to recruiting Dwight and Sherry, but that loss was not a vulnerability for which the community was ill-equipped; it was a possible expense Alexandria believed they could afford, if it occurred, and willingly accepted when they sent their people to handle the walkers in the quarry. It just so happened while Daryl recruited Dwight and Sherry...and earlier when the trio first held Daryl captive.

    Since survival risks on the road and while recruiting are the same, the fact that Daryl lost his property twice indicates he needs to brush up on his survival tactics. In this particular case the loss of the crossbow and bike is Daryl's fault for not minimizing his risks as a survivor on the road (i.e., lowering his guard in front of strangers). It's not a fault of recruitment itself because again he was already outside the walls and thus susceptible to these risks. He happened to lose his weaponry and transport while trying to recruit someone, but that's the fault of him not effectively strategizing his recruitment process (successful persuasion and minimal risks/maximal survival), not the fault of the recruitment process itself. In that moment as a survivor and a recruiter, Daryl got a little dumb but that doesn't mean recruitment at the time was wrong or stupid. It means he acted somewhat irrationally and inattentively and should probably sharpen his survival tactics and reassess his recruitment strategies.

    Technically, Aaron's backpack fiasco occurred before recruiting was suspended, but we can still apply the abovementioned and pretend it was spontaneous recruitment, if we want. Aaron's recruitment errors exemplify how recruitment can be detrimental, specifically the recruitment process. Just losing the backpack could have been written off as recruiter survival error if the backpack hadn't contained pictures of the community. (Aaron's pictures are the persuasion aspect of the recruitment process.) Their presence exposed Alexandria to a vulnerability for which they were ill-equipped and ill-prepared: the Wolves. Thus, this particular instance epitomized how flawed recruitment processes, particularly erroneous recruitment strategies, can make recruitment detrimental because it increased Alexandria’s vulnerability.

    Hopefully, all that explained how I can simultaneously agree with Rick's decision to suspend active recruitment but also judge spontaneous recruitment attempts favorably, depending on the context, even if the recruitment process fails.

    And amen to the bolded portion. The characters will err, but sometimes they behave quite...er, irrationally. Yeah, that's the word I'll use. And Rick...sometimes I just want to reach into my screen, hand him a Snickers, and say, "Here, Rick, have a Snickers...'cause you get a little stupid and a little crazy when you have eaten."
     
    #41 Hope the Savior, Nov 22, 2015
  2. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Absolutely. Some are simple matters of inclusion and a person needing reinforcement from the community and others are people just too far gone, or with personality defects that are unfortunately too difficult to correct in the extreme world of the ZA and the latter here are what I am addressing. I really don't believe some can be helped and trying to help them is too much risk.

    Bit more simple description than the actual portrayal of it. Ignoring that Glenn is one of the only people that would have let him live just because of Glenn's own personal moral compass - this was a tense situation with Maggie seeing she was up in the air about it(naturally), which I think Glenn himself naturally would be as well.

    Glenn never killed a human on screen, I think he may be someone who cannot - a tougher and more balanced version of Morgan's deal. I don't think Glenn fully knew what to do with Nicolas, which exemplifies my point on dealing with liabilities.

    The not-so-dry run having a hand in it and ending up in bad circumstance having a hand in it aside... Glenn let a liability who looked like he was starting to suffer from PTSD and had no clarity at the moment lead him around in a highly dangerous situation to a hopeless situation.

    They really should have heeded Rick's advice in that scenario. Even if Nicolas is trying, which he was, I would just have to argue that no matter what - someone like him is destined to fatally screw up himself or others and this would be ignoring his attempted murder on Glenn.

    Under any rational way, Nicolas was the #1 candidate for execution.

    I could see him coming around. He at least deserved a chance while being cautious with it and working to make sure that these former tendencies are resolved before being out on runs. Letting him prove himself, etc.

    That fool, lol...

    It's just too much risk, IMO. In a world of threats and dangers lurking around every imaginable corner, I would not want someone like FG in my community. He has far too many bad qualities stretching even prior to joining up with the main group. Not all of the religious characters experienced psychological meltdown in regards to their faith perceived reality in the ZA - Hershel did not, I'd argue though that Hershel was a moderate religious man like many ordinary Southerners are and FG is a bit of a zealot.

    Religious zealots have been and continue to be hazards in the real world, nevermind TWD.

    All of his own issue's relate back to that and he's entrenched into his ways. We don't need to go over what he's done but it's well beyond the door and little speech he threw at Deanna.

    "We'll have to wait and see..." in TWD usually ends up as serious tactical error involving people. :)

    However, you are correct that executing FG openly may be a bad look in the greater sense of community. So my solution would be he gets lost on a run. ;)

    I understand. I am not also an extremist or a hardliner like some post where they would be inclined to just kill anybody "weak". I'm talking about pure security risks that we can't work with. Spencer probably can be worked with, but again you'd have to be smart and need to give him a job and set of responsibilities that don't involve people's lives on the line and it's a sensitive thing.

    Pete wasn't able to be worked with. Rick was correct going to Deanna and advising to deal with him and give him the chance of snapping into shape or eating a bullet. Perhaps he went about it wrong after the conversation, but Deanna sat back and was inactive like was her previous modus operandi involving security. There was a lengthy thread I made thinking about Deanna's leadership and my main focus was of security being totally nuts. However I reconsidered some things and aspects of her leadership were good, she just wasn't fit for the overall job and is better in a co-leadership situation, or side authority.

    Sorry to divert... just related to how to deal with these people.

    Ron is a kid. Kid's can be worked with... sometimes, haha. That little punk is foul though. You'd have to be on guard and Carl and Rick really need to read that situation given all of the variables that's instigating it.

    Yes.


    Daryl has shown excellent firearm capabilities throughout the show. His background alone would have you well experienced and adept with them. He's mostly seen using a cross bow but look back to S3 where in the conflict with Woodbury he was proficiently utilizing the AR-15 assault rifle and various handguns.

    As for the other group, they had rifles. A mere 9mm and crossbow like they had is tactically under powered against the other group in range, accuracy and stopping power.

    Staying silent and trying to escape is the best bet and the diversion with the walker that Daryl improvised was the smartest thing he did in the episode.

    Giving the gun back to Dwight was of no help.
     
    #42 Ionut, Nov 22, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2015
  3. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Indeed, indeed. That's how I feel on it, no arguments. Having photo's and area schematics of the community's location on your body is tactically erroneous. This is especially so after recruiting Rick's group and hearing an ear full from them about just how hostile other groups can be.

    If I was Aaron I would have removed that from my tactics upon hearing of something like Terminus.

    Fully understood and I mostly agree. If the summation is "Suspend active recruitment but if an opportunity on the spontaneous arises to bring in very useful and trustworthy additions, then we use our best judgement and carefully try", then we're on the same page.

    Well none of them are geniuses. They're all mostly ordinary people that have evolved in this hell of a reality and that's what makes the show so damn interesting - flaws and all.

    Rick's made some decisions that had me shaking my head. Terminus(don't get me started). But he's also made some brilliant decisions and he's put his life on the line again and again to protect his group and he's finally not afraid to pull the trigger, with some saying he's gone too ruthless.

    Rick and Carol are my favorite characters by far. Carol has evolved into a really amazing quick thinker and to me her evolution is the most incredible from S1-current, but neither of them are brilliant people with all of the answers - but who is?

    Eugene and Deanna are likely smarter than almost all of them, but they couldn't make it without people like Rick and Carol who WILL pull the trigger so to speak. Then you've got Maggie's and Daryl's and personalities within the spectrum in between. It's all a balancing thing.

    Nobody has all of the answers and everyone has different strengths, all very important. A good balanced situation for Alexandria is Rick and Carol's are the security and military wing, Maggie and Deanna's are the social wing and then Eugene's and everyone else contributes to other stuff.

    As Deanna said - "the communists won". :D
     
    #43 Ionut, Nov 22, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2015
  4. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Side note and prediction: The Glenn situation makes Maggie way more icey. Apply that to the rest of the conversation.
     
    #44 Ionut, Nov 22, 2015
  5. Hope the Savior

    Hope the Savior Member

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    No, the example I cited pretty much demonstrates how even an extremely cowardly liability like Nicholas can change employing tactics like the resolutions I suggested. Nicholas was beginning to improve as evidenced in “First Time Again” and “Thank You.” Yes, he was suffering through severe PTSD, but he wasn’t resorting to his usual tactics of self-preservation at all costs. He was trying to hold it together, so that they could redirect the smaller herd from Alexandria, prevent Rick’s plan from failing, and all return home. And when he and Glenn found themselves in a situation just as dire as “the revolving door of death,” Nicholas didn’t try to sacrifice Glenn to save himself; he took his own life. These behavioral changes really indicate that basic training and community building can help such liabilities improve and reform.

    The biggest flaw with the Nicholas situation was their allowing him to participate in the quarry plan because he clearly wasn’t ready to be outside the walls. Once a coward has demonstrated strongly positive attitude and behavioral changes, the most pressing concern becomes ensuring they are combat ready. Otherwise, they may inadvertently cause harm or worse to themselves or a fellow survivor. It’ll basically be like having a noob survivor.

    Glenn was initially conflicted about Nicholas not because he couldn’t decide whether to reform him or kill him, but because he teetered very close to killing Nicholas as vengeance for Noah and himself.

    As per Maggie and Tara’s discussion, Nicholas was very close to being nominated for execution. So if Nicholas can change for the better, then there’s a good probability similar liabilities can also, Father Gabriel included. Proceeding with reform or execution will depend entirely upon a variety of factors.

    Rick had to have noticed Ron’s rage when he and Morgan discovered Ron had followed them into the woods. Having previously dealt with an angry and grieving teenager, Rick really should be more cautious and shouldn’t gloss over Ron’s anger when interacting with him.

    Avoiding a fight is smart, but preparing for that fight is prudent. Even though they were outgunned, two people with weapons stand better odds than one person, with two weapons, who can only use one at a time.
     
    #45 Hope the Savior, Nov 23, 2015
  6. Hope the Savior

    Hope the Savior Member

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    The human element and story is what drives the show, and I enjoy watching the survivors evolve and adapt. Again, I expect the characters to err. I don’t mind questionable, realistic mistakes. But there have been moments where the characters behaved completely and ridiculously irrationally. Usually those moments are the writers being unable to better resolve a story arc, develop a character, propel the plot, etc. Those are the moments that make me cringe.

    Maggie's dad was Hershel, her sister was Beth, and her husband is Glenn. Even if she does become more hardened, it will only be for a spell. She'll want to continue to judiciously show compassion and retain her humanity because Glenn inspires her and because she knows that doing so will be the best way to honor her father and sister's memories.
     
    #46 Hope the Savior, Nov 23, 2015
  7. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    He ceased his previous way of operating temporarily as you noted, but he didn't cease being a liability. He never would have ceased being a liability and his actions appearing to be more selfless and overly trying to appear like he was changing to Glenn also was out of self interest. As we have said, he was up in the air and Nicholas himself would know that.

    Ceasing one way of operating doesn't mean there's not a plethora of other bad traits and like I said, some people simply can't be worked with.

    Ignoring the abandoning and ignoring the Noah situation, his attempted murder of Glenn said everything about him. In nature vs. nurture, the characters inherent nature causes him to be a liability that nurture will not fix - certainly not in a ZA environment.

    Oh, of course. Not only that but when the dry run turned into the real thing and they ended up in the town, Glenn didn't read the situation properly despite seeing him phase in and out of reality and allowed Nicholas to take the lead under the reasoning that he had been there before. That is even dumber than taking him along on the run to begin with, but this is an error outside of his potential reform, although it gives more ammo to his liability status.

    But the dumbest thing to begin with was not killing him after he attempted to lure you out and kill you. All of the rest are side issues under that umbrella.

    Yes, Glenn didn't know exactly what to do with him. That's a place where you don't want to be in TWD world involving a formerly hostile liability.

    And we didn't see him change for the better, as in no longer being a direct liability. We saw him behaving in the best way for self preservation so he wouldn't get killed after he attempted something that would get him killed if it got out. Then we saw him take his own life after phasing in and out of PTSD haze. Nicholas was cooked and stick a fork in it.

    As of the current episode Rick and Carl aren't paying attention to something that's very easy to read and it's going to blow up with this kid. And as of the current episode we can see that Ron is just foul and is going to be too difficult to work with no matter what happens, which what is most likely going to happen will see the end of Ron and bad things happen to Carl.

    Which in turn will make Carl and Rick more icey. Not that Rick isn't already quite icey. Still not reading others well though.

    Avoiding is #1. Let's go back to what he had to work with and not knowing the guy's trigger finger. He's got an unarmed person in Sherry and a guy who's twitchy and on edge on Dwight, who already shot at him inaccurately and went through half of the magazine on a mere handgun vs. a team with rifles and a vehicle. Add in his crossbow.

    Giving the guy the gun vs. that enemy was of no benefit. A fight = death or capture.

    Being that you and I agreed that Daryl should have bolted, this all is under a larger umbrella of bad decision making that day.
     
    #47 Ionut, Nov 23, 2015
  8. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Becoming more hardened does not mean losing all of those necessary features. It's a balancing act.

    Maggie needs to harden up more, she has leadership potential. The Nicholas ordeal is one that Maggie and Glenn made a mistake with and something to learn from.

    That said, Rick could lighten up just a little. Not a lot... just a little.
     
    #48 Ionut, Nov 23, 2015
  9. Hope the Savior

    Hope the Savior Member

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    Like I said about Daryl’s gun situation, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I see the merits and risks in both options and my stance will not change.

    Yes, I know it’s a balancing act. Maggie is already well balanced. I’m just highlighting the motivations and reasons that will prevent Maggie from permanently upholding a perspective of never giving people chances, even those who are deserving of them.

    And at this point, regarding the whole how to manage various types of liabilities (inexperienced, cowardly, angry, combination, etc.), we’re just going around in circles. I’ve already presented solutions that not only deal with the liabilities, but also solidify the community: fostering relationships; displays of good will, concern, and altruism; and weapons training and defense. Obviously, execution is still an option, but it's a last resort measure. The recent events which have transpired on screen have demonstrated that such solutions can and do work. Again, deciding which option with which to proceed will depend on the circumstance and the variables involved.
     
    #49 Hope the Savior, Nov 23, 2015
  10. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Fair enough - cheers. ;)

    We'll see what transpires. I hope it picks it up and continue's til the end of the season.
     
    #50 Ionut, Nov 23, 2015
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